Amps on stage vs no amps on stage

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 11 Aug 2002 5:29 pm

This may be on the wrong string, but here it goes. I play at a church with a rather large band with consists of Bass, Electronic Keyboard, 2 electric guitars,Rythmn guitar, harmonica, Drums, flute,organ, grand piano and sometimes a banjo and or fiddle and then there is me on steel. We are moving into a larger building and the contractor for the sound says there should be no amps on stage and every musician should have a personal in-ear monitor. I know there are some pros out there who have played or do play both ways. What are the advantages or disadvantages of this arrangement. I have always played thru a Vegas 400 and had a floor monitor in front of me with no steel in the monitor. If your reply is too long for the forum, send me an e-mail.
Thanks.

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 11 Aug 2002 6:06 pm

PERSONALLY, I'd tell the contractor that you know more about YOUR TRADE than he likely does....and to take a walk with his hammer and nails. Talk about musicians having status?

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 11 Aug 2002 6:32 pm

Ray, thanks for the reply, This is a contractor who supposedly has installed numerous systems in large music theatres.Funny thing is, I visited the city where these theatres are and they all used monitors on stage, in stage or above stage and the musicians had amps next to them. Thanks for your reply. I don't know if he installed these systems. Thanks for the reply.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 11 Aug 2002 7:23 pm

First off, it's MHO that having no amps on stage is stupid. It just "looks" stupid! It's like a Corvette with no tailpipes, or a house with no windows. Am I the only one who realizes that part of the "appeal" of any band is their equipment? What's the point of hiding everything? No, I'm sorry...it doesn't look more "professional"...it just looks bare, "cheap and cheesy"...like "Yeah man, we got amps, but they're tiny beat-up old Silvertones, and we're ashamed of them". One Forumite even recently said he was "impressed" with a band that "had nothing on stage". Well, it sure wouldn't impress me! I can just see someone telling John Phillips Souza, "Sure, we really like your marching band, but cover up all those horns with a sheet or something, we don't want them distracting anybody".

Right.

It's a sad thing indeed when someone has the nerve to tell the band "Don't put the amps where anyone can see them!" As a musician, you know (at least you'd better know) more than he does about setting up a stage, and getting a good sound! Tell him to install, or set up, the equipment, and then tell him to leave...you'll take it from there.

EVERY SINGLE TIME I have been disappointed with a band's sound...guess what? Yeah, you guessed it, they had a "sound man".

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 11 Aug 2002 7:35 pm

That's the nuttiest thing I have ever heard. I don't think this guy has a clue about the logistics of doing what he proposes.
First, to have players on a stage and their amps in another location will require wireless remote units to send the instrument signal to the amp, in other words radio control units. A good quality UHF remote costs right around $300.00 a pop. The receiver,or base, is hooked to the amp and the sending unit is hooked to the instrument and attached to your belt.
Second, you do not have the ability to control your tone settings, just signal strength.
Third, the personal ear monitor is going to be hard to get used to because no two people like the same mix and the band will sound compressed. The control box has only a volumne control and not mix controls, which means if the drums are too loud you have to bug the sound man to make adjustments like in a recording studio.
You guys are playing live performances and the studio senerio does not work very well in my opinion. Even if stage monitors are in the right place you are still not going to have a good perspective of your own sound right behind you in a normal setting.
There is nothing worse than a sound man controlling the dynamics of your playing when he is rolling off the volumne control when he confuses your playing dynamics from loudness.

[This message was edited by Earl Erb on 11 August 2002 at 08:38 PM.]

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 11 Aug 2002 7:44 pm

I highly doubt the sound contractor really cares what it looks like. With a band that size, in a usually fairly live church situation, there is a lot of sound floating around to deal with. Eliminating the monitors and amps really helps out the sound guys a lot. A lot of guys are either putting amps backstage/under the stage/in iso boxes to get the miked amp sound, without clouding the stage mix.

I am currently overseeing the TV mix setup for a major church here in Denver. 96 inputs from the stage--large 12 piece band, plus an 80 piece choir in a 3000 seat venue. 16 monitor mixes--almost all in/ears, with a few wedges here and there. If there were a bunch of amps and monitors onstage, it would be a nightmare.

No amps for a 4 piece band in a club would be a little crazy, but in a lot of situations, it makes a lot of sense.

By the way, I have heard some absolutley stunning live mixes with no amps/monitors...

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 11 Aug 2002 8:19 pm

Quote:By the way, I have heard some absolutley stunning live mixes with no amps/monitors...
John, I guess I can say I have never experienced that type of live playing situation in my career. The closest I come to not using an amp is in a studio and going direct.

John Macy · Post by **John Macy** » 11 Aug 2002 8:35 pm

Earl--Yeah, it's a different world, and only works when really good people are running the system

. A lot of guitar players running this setup are using PODs and such, and it translates fairly well. I still prefer the sound of my amps, though.

By the way, I still listen to your CD, especially on driving trips, and sure enjoy it!

Earl Erb · Post by **Earl Erb** » 11 Aug 2002 9:26 pm

John, I used my Line 6 Pod to record that CD you have, but there are only a few amp models that I liked. I'm not into the Marshalls or the British sounding amps.

Glad you still enjoy my music. By the way, if you wear that one out, let me know and I will send you another one.

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 11 Aug 2002 9:42 pm

Live, I want to hear "paper flapping", not some soundman's concept of what I should sound like. I spent a lot of money on amplifiers and guitars and I spend a lot of time working on my "sound" and that's what I want to hear.

In a recording studio, I'm at the mercy of the engineer, and the producer is paying me to deliver what he wants regardless of what I think it should sound like. The man wants eggs over easy, it don't matter how I like my eggs.

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 12 Aug 2002 2:49 am

I play in a band in Vegas and some of the lounges have started using the in-ear monitors. When the band was thinking about using the personal monitor system(PMS), I talked to one of the guys that developed it(he lives in Las Vegas). He said the PMS is made to enhance existing monitor systems not to replace them.
When you eliminate the stage amps and floor monitors then you have to put all the instruments into the in-ears and they are not made to handle all of it. The mix will get muddy, distort or blow the driver and start to cause hearing damage. The last one is why I decided not to use them. With amps and floor monitors if something gets harsh or a little loud you can turn your head away from it and protect your hearing, with every thing running though your in-ears you can't do that.
You also lose the feel and blend of the band when you do away with amps and monitors.Then you become dependent on a soundman for your blend and dynamics. If your in a band where the musicians improvise and play off each other Its almost impossible to do if everyone's mix isn't perfect every time. With amps if you hear the guitar do a lick and then you do something off of that, without the amps you may not hear him in your mix. So then the music starts to suffer and loses its soul all because someone doesn't want amps on stage.
I wont even go into the difference in tone without your amp on stage. I'll just tell you that I have a dozens pre-CBS fender amps and if someone told me I had to play without one, I would be playing somewhere else with a amp.

Keith DeLong · Post by **Keith DeLong** » 12 Aug 2002 3:23 am

The only time I've used earbuds was when they ran the vocals throught the monitors, no instruments. I can imagine the clutter in your ears, having the whole sound mix in those little earbuds. The advantage of having amps on stage is, you can hear what it is, and where it is, left, right, forward, or back, i.e., three-dimensional. Leave it up to the sound tech putting it all in your earbuds, the *&^%%$$# drum mix would probably take priority

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 12 Aug 2002 3:33 am

It looks like this thread hit a few nerves. I appreciate all the response. I'm going to keep it open for a while longer. Thanks for all the input. Keep the posts coming forumites.

Ben Lawson · Post by **Ben Lawson** » 12 Aug 2002 4:00 am

I play in a couple of bands and have to go "ampless" in one of them. I can never get the feel of the music or the mix that I like.
Our soundman also mixes for Blood, Sweat and Tears, so you can guess where the steel falls in the mix.
In the other bands we use amps and I feel that I can play with more feeling and actually pick faster when the need arises.
Unfortunatly I have to work in three bands to make even a meager living.
I sure am glad my wife has a "real" job.

Todd Weger · Post by **Todd Weger** » 12 Aug 2002 4:57 am

With amps if you hear the guitar do a lick and then you do something off of that, without the amps you may not hear him in your mix. So then the music starts to suffer and loses its soul all because someone doesn't want amps on stage.

I agree with this completely. THAT is precisely what I don't like about those ampless/in-ear setups. I'm sure that there are, and have been incredible mixes using this method, but in my experience, the performances tend to be more forgettable, and less incredible. Sterile is the word that first leaps to my mind. Those mixes might be squeaky clean, but I'll save squeaky clean for my dinner plates, laundry and personal hygiene.

I want to hear my music gritty, passionate and in 3D -- warts and all! Of course, I can see where the soundman's coming from, but that's where personal responsibility comes in on the musician's part to run their amp volume at a reasonable level. Need it turned up to get "that sound?" Get a smaller wattage amp. I've been doing this for years and works great.

But, that's just this one man's opinion. YMMV!

TJW

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 12 Aug 2002 5:20 am

The last thing you want, is religious music without soul. Think about it!
This guy would be a lot happier if you sang to Kareoke.It sounds like a none-musician with a theory.

Michael Brebes · Post by **Michael Brebes** » 12 Aug 2002 7:59 am

I believe the last time that Clint Black went on tour, all the players were going through POD Pros and they seemed pretty happy with it. From a staging point of view, the extra space on stage could be a plus in may instances. I've known some groups on tours to actually have their amps off stage or under the stage for the same reason.

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 12 Aug 2002 9:29 am

Michael,can you give me a little info on the POD pro. I am not familiar with this. How do the musician hear themselves.
Thanks

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 12 Aug 2002 10:15 am

Short and simple:

Just as in a conventional stage set up, not just any in-ear system is right. I am totally in favor of a properly set-up in-ear system. Especially for large rooms; especially for saving your ears; especially for sounding the way you "think" you sound to the audience. There is a big difference between the way you think you sound and the way you actually sound with active speakers on the stage and in the main system. Speaker phasing and speaker throw are big parts of that equation.

A good in-ear system will have the instrument or vox mic going into a preamp and/or outboard audio conditioning gear (like the Line 6 "POD"). This way you can custom tailor your sound. From there you send the signal (via a d-box from instruments) to an on-stage snake terminal marked with all the inputs. The output is marked to match the input and split so that the output goes to the house or "main system AND to a monitor mixing board dedicated to the in-ear monitor system. The monitor mixing board should have enough channels to cover all active signals from the stage. Those signals can be mixed/balanced to the requirement of each in-ear monitor. Once the in-ear system is set to each player's liking it can and should be kept. This translates into each band member hearing each performance the way they like it and it will never change involuntarily. Also, with a mixing board, the levels can be set so that each monitor-send signal is ultra clear (transparent to the input signal) and at a sound level far below the damage threshold. This is usually not the case with an array of Peavey's, Fenders, and other combo-amps all competing with the full-throated volume of a drum kit and onstage monitors.

The Kevin Fowler band uses an in-ear monitor system as I described and I was skepticle at first. Now, I hope I never have to play on a stage full of amps and monitors again....makes my ears hurt.

My post is not intended to shake any cages. I just want to give an informed answer. Your mileage may vary....

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn www.kevinfowler.com [This message was edited by Glenn Suchan on 12 August 2002 at 12:10 PM.]

Ray Montee (RIP) · Post by **Ray Montee (RIP)** » 12 Aug 2002 10:26 am

When I was playing LIVE TV....they used to hide our amps behind a heavy duty stage type curtain about an inch thick. While playing, it was like hearing yourself with a "DELAY", as the sound filtered its way thro' the hanging canvas curtain.
Everybody is trying to get into the musicians act........ promoters, managers, publicists, stage hands, elecricians, yoderlers.....
Gee's, I can still remember the olden days way back before the 1970's. It was great then and simple too!

Alvin Blaine · Post by **Alvin Blaine** » 12 Aug 2002 10:31 am

James,
The POD PRO(Line 6) is a digital amp simulator. You plug into it then it goes to the mixer board then the sound of your guitar comes out of the mains and whatever monitor you use.
If you remember the little Rockman Headphone practice amp about 15-20 years ago,well these are kind of an updated version. Insted of a practice amp now they are using them for recording and live shows.
To me they sound awful, very processed and harsh, and there's no place to plug in any 6L6 tubes.

Jeff Peterson · Post by **Jeff Peterson** » 12 Aug 2002 11:19 am

Our rhythm guitar player, Martin Young, uses a POD Pro when he plays electric. Clint uses mics on his Matchless and Peavey Classic, and Hayden(lead gtr.) use mics on Matchless. I use Peavey VMP II driving a TubeFex and POD Pro(in the TubeFex effects loop), either into a Peavey 1000(single channel), or a DPC-1400 to twin 12's or 15's all Black Widows.....and mic it. Most of the band is using Ultimate Ears(me, Clint, Martin, Jake(bass), Dane(piano), Monte(fiddle), Steve(background singer), Hayden and Dick(drums) use another make. Too much info? Sorry. One other thing, using in-ears permits me to use mics on my Dobro, and I get all the gain I need, so does the FOH engineer....also one of the best, Buford Jones.

Dyke Corson · Post by **Dyke Corson** » 12 Aug 2002 2:58 pm

Very Interesting Jeff!

Question: Do the "Ultimate Ears" suppliment the stage sound, or are the amps located backstage or somewhere else? I have always tried to ask different steel players who play for pro's about this topic, none of them have ever told me that they like the in-ear stuff. With most of the bands I have opened for using in-ear, the amps are backstage or under the stage.

I am also curious if there are any small bar bands out there trying to use in-ear systems.

I get requests in many church bids for quotes on in-ear systems, usually because someone in the church is trying to keep the praise band's volume level down.

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 12 Aug 2002 6:20 pm

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my post. Several of the band members are concerned with the proposed set up. Having not used the ampless/ear monitor system we are alittle aprehensive. It is really great to have the forum where amateurs like me can communicate with the great full time guys to know how things work sometime. I know some of you guys are really busy and I appreciate your time. I am going to present all your comments to the building supervisor and the building committe for the new building so we can all be better informed. Thanks again. I'll probably close this tomorrow evening so if you have a comment, let me know on the forum or shoot me an e-mail.

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Michael Brebes · Post by **Michael Brebes** » 13 Aug 2002 6:50 am

The main difference between the POD and POD Pro is that it is a rack mount unit that has digital and balanced analog outs added. Otherwise it operates the same. Glad to get info about Clint from the real source. My info was from a web page on Line 6's site (I think).