Tone Part II

Bruce Bouton · Post by **Bruce Bouton** » 16 Mar 2002 8:19 pm

I just finished reading all one hundred five posts on tone or lack of. I was happy to see my old friend Neil Flanz posting his humble opinion. Most of you probably didn't have the opportunity(no offense to the one's that did)to hang out on Broadway at the Deemons Den or the old Merchants Hotel during the winter of 1979. I had just moved to town. I had a job at the Sho~Bud factory and would spend my nights on Broadway listening and sitting in when I could. I had the privilege of hearing some stellar steel moments from Mr Flanz. He had an Emmons plugged straight into a Peavey. There were times I thought he achieved the perfect tone. It helped that he was playing a great guitar but that tone really came from inside of him. It's hard to explain but it's kind of like there was a meeting of his heart and his hands. He found the sweet spot.
Years ago Buddy Charlton used to give me grief about my thumb and hand position. He told me if I didn't get my thumb right I'd never be able to dig the tone out of my instrument . How right he was.
I remember about the same time I had read an article about Pablo Casals , the late ,great cellist. When asked about practicing he remarked that he would sometime spend hours on one note just trying to achieve the perfect tone.
We are all guilty of spending hours and dollars on gear trying to find tone nirvana. It's a wate of time if you don't have the basics down. It's in your heart and your hands. Yeah you need a decent guitar and amp but if you can't get the tone that way all the pre amps in China won't help.
I just heard some of Lloyd's new recordings. It's incredible and it's just an amp and a guitar.
Anyway it's Saturday night and I'm just rambling.
Later
BB

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 16 Mar 2002 8:37 pm

Bruce,

I hate to get specific to the point of minutia, but you got my curiosity going.... If your willing, just what was it about your thumb position Buddy Charlton corrected? I'm relatively new to steel, and I know darn well my thumb (and everything connected to it) has a very long way to go.

Thanks for a really nice, insightful post, BTW.

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Bill L | My steel page | Email | My music | Steeler birthdays | Over 50?

Bruce Bouton · Post by **Bruce Bouton** » 16 Mar 2002 8:51 pm

I used to bend my thumb resulting in the side of the pick hitting the string. Buddy got me holding my hand curled up like i was holding a golfball and keeping my thumb straight. It's rather hard to explain although there is a video on homespun tapes that I did in the eighties that illustrates this technique.
BB

Steve Miller · Post by **Steve Miller** » 16 Mar 2002 10:54 pm

I'd give my right arm for a good right hand...Doh!

Seriously though, I think good tone is mostly in the right hand. Yes, the left hand is important too but it's not nearly as difficult (for me anyway). My day job requires that I use my hands alot which causes them to get "muscle bound". This makes it very difficult to contort my right hand back into the correct shape and keep my technique up to par (even though I practice every night). When my right hand is in shape I play well, if it's not I'm in trouble!

Steve

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 17 Mar 2002 12:07 am

Hey Bruce

Do your thumb notes sound better than your finger notes now?

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 17 Mar 2002 2:30 am

Bruce, ramble on!!
You are right on the money!!
Johan

Gary Lee Gimble · Post by **Gary Lee Gimble** » 17 Mar 2002 4:31 am

Buddy will inspect your thumb pick too. Wear on the edges means you are not picking the strings correctly. Additionally, the positioning of your thumb and middle finger must be relatively close together while picking two strings at once.

Bruce, you left out the letter "E" in Charleton's name. I'm gonna tell him!

Gary Lee

Al Miller · Post by **Al Miller** » 17 Mar 2002 5:41 am

Bruce!
you are right buddy used to make me hold a ping pong ball in my hand on every lesson for about a yr and he also tied a string around my right arm to keep it in line with the pick up.
i get my best tone just plugging in toan amp (nashville 400)
BOO MILLER

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AL (BOO) Miller
mullen D10
65 EMMONS P/P D-10

Al Miller · Post by **Al Miller** » 17 Mar 2002 5:42 am

oh yea bruce my dad says hello !

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AL (BOO) Miller
mullen D10
65 EMMONS P/P D-10

RON PRESTON · Post by **RON PRESTON** » 17 Mar 2002 5:59 am

Bruce, How right you are....I LOVE it when you "Heavyweights" post here on the forum and just say ONE thing that can change your whole outlook on this instrument we so dearly love. I think I know what you are talking about when you mentioned "the SWEET SPOT"....(nothing like it)
I watched Ron Elliott at the Knoxville show in 2000 in the Emmons Booth....and God, did he EVER hit the Sweet spot...He not only hit it, He stayed there, never left it, guys like that puts me on a high that is impossible to explain. By the way, Bruce, are you to be in Dallas this year? I sure hope so....Love to meet you. Thanks for your Info on the right hand, I'm more aware than ever on my means of touch and attack. Oh, BTW...I heard,( so I am NOT sure if this is true or not, so do not take this to the bank).....But, I heard that Tommy White takes his thumb pick and files it down to almost nothing so his thumb hardly moves up and down or across the strings so he can triple his speed picking. Makes good sense to me, because I tried this and it worked for me, But, try to pick like Tommy at WARP SPEED...HA!!! He is a monster when it comes to speeeeeeeed!!! If there is any truth to this, I hope Tommy sees this post and keeps me stright about the fileing of his picks.
Thanks, Bruce...hope to meet you one day.
Ron

John LeMaster · Post by **John LeMaster** » 17 Mar 2002 6:30 am

I add my "THANKS" to you Bruce for sharing the insight about thumb pick position. It was also interesting to read about Casals practicing at great length on just one note in order to perfect his tone on cello.

Ron Preston, I happened to wander in to the Emmons room at Knoxville in 2000 and I wholeheartedly agree that Ron Elliott's tone, touch, and styling were superb. In fact, getting to see and hear Ron "up close" was a highlight of the weekend for me.

John L.

Dave Ristrim · Post by **Dave Ristrim** » 17 Mar 2002 8:01 am

It seems to me that the "Tone thing" comes to most steel players after they get real comfortable with playing the instrument for awhile. Awhile can be years, as it was for me. I have had students try to get a great tone with no luck, due to the fact that their playing skills have not developed to a point where the subtle nuances of "getting good tone" are available to them. It's hard to describe, but I would say it's like "being able to drive a regular car well, but not being able to drive a racing car in the Indy 500". You could own a race car (i.e. the best gear on the planet) but may not be ready to drive it well. Once you know your way around the instrument, to the point of not concentrating on playing so much, you can go to the next step (and there are many next steps) and work on that. You can play all the right notes but your timing is off, or you can play in time and all the right notes but your volume pedal work sucks, etc. etc.
I have had huge breakthroughs after years of struggling with seamingly simple things like hand position, pick shape, blocking technique etc. Just keep playing and LISTEN and LEARN from everyone elses trial and error. Yes, something as simple as your thumb pick can lead to better tone. But, then again (i have to say it) tone is in the ear of the beholder.

Better tone to all,
Dave[This message was edited by Dave Ristrim on 17 March 2002 at 08:02 AM.][This message was edited by Dave Ristrim on 17 March 2002 at 08:03 AM.]

Tom Mortensen · Post by **Tom Mortensen** » 17 Mar 2002 8:43 am

Bruce,
I like the idea of keeping a sort of "Technique" library.
Right-Hand placement and position, blocking styles, and bar technique can all be altered for desired tone and effect.
To Me,the "Meeting of the Heart and Hands" that you speak of, and that I agree with, is when a player has developed an extensive "Technique" library and the heart to know how to use it.

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tombleu.com

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Mar 2002 10:26 am

The more time I spend practicing left hand technique, the better I sound. Seriously! I noticed last night that my hand position, which felt like a "contortion" when I first started working on it, was now almost natural. And I sounded much better because of all that work.

I'm lucky that Mrs. Lee is the only one who hears me practice. She understands that practice isn't always musical. Some of my best advances have come after hours of non-musical noise. You will never get a good tone if your hand muscles aren't properly trained.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 17 Mar 2002 10:46 am

I play 2 gigs a week on Fri-Sat nights in different places. For one gig I use 2 amps (mid 70's Session 400's) and a Profex II or a Trantubefex. The other one I use 1 Evans amp and a delay pedal. It's a world of difference trying to get great tone with less stuff to work with. I also use 2 different guitars, Emmons P/P's. One has single coil pick-up, the other the new BL 710's and that makes a difference too. I think you will always adjust to the situation for the tone you're looking for. I seen a guy on the Opry here a couple of weeks ago playing with no picks at all. I would think that would be the hardest way to play and especially get good tone. Who was that? Bruce I too heard Neil back then and he even sat in on my guitar once and he did in fact get great tone. I also sold you a S-10 Marlen about 10 years ago down at The Turf.

erik · Post by **erik** » 17 Mar 2002 10:49 am

Each individual can practice intensly, perfect their technique, etc. The fact still remains that great "tone" is a gift. It is in your biorhythms (if you will) and hands. To draw parallels, you can have 5 great blues bass players, but the one with the best fingers and touch will get the coolest tone. As a teen, i took drum lessons. My teacher had these fingers that were like logs. He could hit his practice pad and put a wallop on it. I try with my finger and it goes : : pink:: LOL. Tone is like charisma, it's in you. Certainly hard practice can improve what you have, but it can not subplant what you are born with. A person that posseses good tone can make any piece of junk sing.[This message was edited by erik on 17 March 2002 at 10:51 AM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 17 Mar 2002 11:30 am

The amazing thing is that Buddy is as active as ever with his teaching and is available. I drive all the way from CT for lessons and it has been well worth it.
His rates are very low also.

You can find him at:

kayleec@erols.com

and
540-972-2388
301-297-4656

Bob

chas smith R.I.P. · Post by **chas smith R.I.P.** » 17 Mar 2002 12:18 pm

I heard that Pablo Casals practiced the Bach Cello concerto for a dozen years, to make sure that he got it right, before he played it in concert. A number of years ago, one of the local classical stations did an A-B of his recording on vinyl compared to Yo Yo Ma's newly released, at that time, recording of the same on CD. The contrast was remarkable.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Mar 2002 6:01 pm

Now what?

Half of the players here on the FORUM have already bought the ______ pickups, the _______ volume pedal, the _______ amplifier, the ________ guitar, the ________ effects unit, the _______ bar, and the ________ strings, and the ________ cords just to get a good tone...

And now yet another top player comes along and says, in effect, "It's mostly in the hands".

Thanks Bruce! (A few of us knew it all along

)

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 17 Mar 2002 9:03 pm

Just for the record, I find this particular conversation about tone more relevant (and helpful) than the last.
Bruce, thanks for firing the first shot.
You should hang around here more often... I know sometimes we p1ss you off. It's the nature of the beast. I can dig it.
I'd sooner hear about pick angle than Karma anytime

-John[This message was edited by John Steele on 17 March 2002 at 11:02 PM.]

Rusty Hurse · Post by **Rusty Hurse** » 18 Mar 2002 12:18 am

Bruce said it all right there guys, and he gets a great tone also and one of my favorite players.The great Jimmy Day just PLUGGED INTO AN AMP,and would say"let's go boys".If you ever get a chance to see Bruce live don't miss it, YOU WILL LEARN ALOT IN A SHORT TIME!

RON PRESTON · Post by **RON PRESTON** » 18 Mar 2002 4:19 am

What a thread

Dave Ristrim..well said...when I teach a NEW student, the 1st thing I will ask them,(if they are of driving age)is:"Can you drive a stick-shift"? and if they say Yes, I will show them the same approch, (for example) Left hand...(your bar hand)..is the steering hand...your right hand..(the picking hand)..is your shifting hand...left pedal foot..is the clutch foot...right foot..(volume foot)...is the gas pedal...and I try to get them to sincrinize the body motions playing the steel as if driving a stick. When most of my students see this concept..it really helps them "get a grip",(if you will)on getting started.
Frank Parish:
I know of a friend of mine in Louisville,Ky. (Booggie Sharrard) that is an exceptional player,(has Great Tone Too)that uses only a GUITAR PICK. He can't use thumb&metal picks. You have to see him play to REALLY appreciate what he does, and HOW he does it!
Donnie Hinson:
WELL SAID, my friend.

Back to the quest for TONE....(and BTW)...where is DR. Bobbie Sizemore?...I would LOVE to hear what he has to say about TONE

Al Miller · Post by **Al Miller** » 18 Mar 2002 6:07 am

hey Ron! there used to be a guy aroung the DC area that used a flat pick and two metal finger picks his name is sid hudson (mr clean they called him) he was amazing and good tone too i wonder what ever happend to him do you know bruce?
BOO miller

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AL (BOO) Miller
mullen D10
65 EMMONS P/P D-10

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 18 Mar 2002 7:59 pm

Bruce,
That was the best steel guitar post i've seen in quite a while. I,m not a long time player, but I learned real early that a thumb pick not held straight would sometimes sound like it was scraping the wound strings. And they would really wear the sides off which is what made me try to hold it straight, and it sure did sound better.

I don't remember who said to also hold your arm straight with the pick up, and I learned something new again. I could get better bar action by sitting in front of the 17th fret. I moved back to the 15th and my arm was straight. It made the sound of my finger picks much cleaner.

Thanks Bruce and everyone else. This Forum is a great place....even if Jeff Peterson thinks we're all a bunch of grouchy old men.

Bob.