Favorite vertical lever?

[Geoffrey Dyer]

Which is the most important vertical knee lever or the most appropriate to add if you’ve never used one?

I’ve had a D10 with 8 pedals and 4 levers forever and am getting a new guitar with 5 knee levers. What should I add to a typical Emmons E9 and C6 copedent for a D10? What would I get the most use out of, be most practical, or be the best for someone who’s never used one? Going for Bakersfield style. Thanks!

[Andrew Frost]

I opted to move it over to the to back neck of my main guitar a while ago.
E neck is now simpler and feels more agile with just 4&4. The vertical is in the centre of the undercarriage presently and raises string 6 E to F on C6. Works great.

[Jerry Overstreet]

You can do whatever you want with it. If you buy a new guitar with what's considered a standard set up, it will most likely come with lowering 5&10. There must be a reason. Many professional players such as BE did that.

There is a lot to be done with that as far as licks and chords.

You can personalize your guitar however you want it, but try to stay with a standardized set up IMO because it has been tried and true. Have a good reason for customizing your tuning opposite the grain. It's impossible to have everything everywhere so just try to make the best use of what's there.

Might be wise to ask your builder for their recommendation as well.

[Brett Lanier]

If you’re lowering 6 a whole step as well as raising 1 & 2 on the same lever, you might want to consider splitting those up and putting 6 lower on the vertical. You’ll get a lot more mileage out of string 1 & 2 raise that way. My current setup is raising 7 a whole step on the lever with 1 & 2 raise, lowering 6 and half on the vertical, and lowering 5 & 10 a half on pedal 4. I can see the reasoning behind lowering 5 & 10 on the vertical, but I think that change being standard causes many beginners to use the split with the A pedal to get a minor chord, which isn’t a great habit to get into when you’re learning.

[Justin Bloudoff]

I've used my LKV to raise my first string F# to G# for many years, I found it opened up a ton more licks and voicings and although it splits the first and second string raise into two different movements it also opens up the door to an array of new ideas.

[Geoffrey Dyer]

Thanks everyone! Lots to think about.

[Dale Rottacker]

If you’re lowering 6 a whole step as well as raising 1 & 2 on the same lever, you might want to consider splitting those up and putting 6 lower on the vertical. You’ll get a lot more mileage out of string 1 & 2 raise that way. My current setup is raising 7 a whole step on the lever with 1 & 2 raise, lowering 6 and half on the vertical, and lowering 5 & 10 a half on pedal 4. I can see the reasoning behind lowering 5 & 10 on the vertical, but I think that change being standard causes many beginners to use the split with the A pedal to get a minor chord, which isn’t a great habit to get into when you’re learning.

Almost exactly what Brett said, EXCEPT ... I would put the 5&10 lower beside your A pedal where you'll get a lot of milage using them together. Like Brett, my whole lower of 6 is on my vertical which to me is far more useful than incorporating it with the 1st/2nd raise where to me its just in the way. The whole raise of 7 ti me (and Brett) is much more useful.

To add a little flavor to that whole lower of 6 on a vertical you can also lower 9 either a half or a whole, especially if you love the 9th string as I do.

IF, you're more a C6th player my vertical there raises the A's to A#/Bb which by itself gives you a Dom7, with the 6th pedal a m7, or with the 5th pedal I think a b5 chord. Anyhow I love that vertical raising the A's.

[Andrew Frost]

Having Bb somewhere in the root position is a powerful change harmonically. It opens things up musically in a big way. Its a shame that is has to live so often on LKV, the least ergonomic position, in my view.
I have the Bb as a raise of string 6 on the zero pedal and use it a lot.
Its a different animal than lowering 5 and/or 10 but yields similar results, and a lot of other stuff too.
FWIW, one school of thought worth looking at is that vertical levers work best when they have changes that mostly are used in combination with floor pedals. Having a frequently used, stand alone change on the vertical is a less 'grounded' set up I feel. But some players seem comfortable with it.
Dale and Bret, your approach sounds interesting. Are you using that whole tone lower of 6 on its own a lot, or mostly as a split with the B pedal?

[Dale Rottacker]

Dale and Bret, your approach sounds interesting. Are you using that whole tone lower of 6 on its own a lot, or mostly as a split with the B pedal?

Andrew I mainly use it like Buddy did in Danny Boy… or as an ending 6/9 chord with that 1/2 9 lower I also have on it.

I completely agree that verticals work better and more naturally if in conjunction with a floor pedal… I’ve never been a fan of the B-Bb on the vertical and didn’t use is as often as I could have. So, with the whole lower of 6 there, for me it’s a better fit as I don’t access it as often as I’d want to access it if it was the B-Bb. Having that change next to the A pedal makes it more functional (thank you Travis) … its just easier for me to go a half step at a time from C#>Bb just rocking my way there with the 0 and A pedal.

[Rich Ertelt]

I use LKV b-Bb, use it quite a bit.
I use it with the 9th chord 2 fret down with B pedal, no pedal, LKV for a decending line, and it work great if you use that on the V chord and resolve to the I with the LKR.

I also use it with A&B pedals. Give the minor, but also Dim and 7b9 chords (which is the same intervals as dim - sort of)

[Richard Sinkler]

Since the early 70s, I have been raising strings 1 & 7 to G. This was a fairly standard knee lever change back then. I use it a lot.

[Brett Lanier]

Dale and Bret, your approach sounds interesting. Are you using that whole tone lower of 6 on its own a lot, or mostly as a split with the B pedal?

I was planning on putting a final lower screw in this guitar I’m playing to get the full whole step drop with the split in tune, but since I also have the string 7 raise on the knee I decided to just live with the half step drop on LKV to see what benefits that might have. There are some… since getting in and out of a pedal/lever split isn’t always so smooth. I may still end up doing it though.

One use I really love for the 6th string half step drop is getting a 5 minor chord in the same position as your pedals down 1 chord. Let’s say you’re going from E to A (1 to 4), pedals down at fret 7… let off the pedals and lower 6 a half for a Bmin… then go back to E and to A at fret 5. A simple 251 in the key of the 4 chord, and sounds very smooth with minimal bar movement.

Dale, having that zero pedal does make sense but maybe bc I’m tall or just used to it, I like having my leg all the way out for the A&B pedals. Since putting the 5&10 drop on pedal 4, I’ve been messing around a little with the C pedal combination. Still have some more exploring to do. I’m going to think about adding a rod for the ninth string on the vertical. Hmm.

Having all these changes is fun, but I’m not really sure if it helps lol. I’ve gone from 8KL’s, down to 3… and now worked my way back up to 7. Not sure if they are helping at all, haha.

[Dale Rottacker]

Dale and Bret, your approach sounds interesting. Are you using that whole tone lower of 6 on its own a lot, or mostly as a split with the B pedal?

Dale, having that zero pedal does make sense but maybe bc I’m tall or just used to it, I like having my leg all the way out for the A&B pedals. Since putting the 5&10 drop on pedal 4, I’ve been messing around a little with the C pedal combination. Still have some more exploring to do. I’m going to think about adding a rod for the ninth string on the vertical. Hmm.

Having all these changes is fun, but I’m not really sure if it helps lol. I’ve gone from 8KL’s, down to 3… and now worked my way back up to 7. Not sure if they are helping at all, haha.

Brett, I hope I didn't misdirect you with the 9th string lower on the vertical, that was in conjunction with lowering 6 a whole. But maybe you did understand and maybe you're onto something that will require me to reopen my "LeverLab™", though not something I want to do.

Having ALL those changes is fun, however keeping track of them all can give you a brain cramp. I spent a couple years in my "LeverLab™" trying to "Have it ALL". Short, well maybe short history. I bought my first MSA in 2017 that Mitchell Smithey had which was setup with the E's split where, both of mine are on the Left. He was willing to change it to however I wanted, but I said leave, and maybe I'll learn something new. One that guitar he also was lowering 5&10 on the 0 pedal, and I fell in love with it there as it was so natural to just move my foot a bit further left and hit it without flailing under the guitar for the vertical. FF, I then bought Wayne Dahls Rittenberry Prestige, the Prototype first one. Again Wayne offered to set it up how I wanted, and again I said leave it, maybe I'll learn something new. Wayne was lowering 9&6 a half on his 0 pedal, (The Beaver Change) and I fell in love. On the lever where he was raising the 1st and 2nd string as well as a whole raise on 7 which I also had and was used too, he was also raising the 9th string a half. WHAT???, thats crazy, but a beautiful Maj7 in a couple different ways comes of it both with just the lever and also with AB down. So, I was going to order a new Rittenberry and a new MSA, but needed to explore "how can I have it all" mentality. At that time I wasn't doing any C6th, but was playing a lot of C6th type chords on E9th and having those 2 additional 9th string changes I found very beneficial. The 9th string on E9th is arguably my favorite string, and to me the biggest contributor to C6th stuff on E9th. I love it SO MUCH that I'm lowering it in 3 places and raising it in one.

Anyhow I had to figure out in a cogent manner how to put those changes on one guitar so that it was playable for me. So below this is what I came up, maybe something there will corrupt you, LOL. Kinda funny that all the thought that went into the E9th neck, when I wasn't playing C6th, and now I play more C6th or try too than E9th.

One thing I wished I'd considered more and acclimating too was that Wayne was lowering the 9th and 2nd string on his RKL, not on RKR like I'd always done. When I think about it, thats the No Brainer way to have it cause you're more apt to use that change with the E's lowered and knees moving together towards each other is more ergonomic than both knees moving in the same direction.

I'll stop now

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[K Maul]

In my primitive style I like having the high E-F# on a separate change as well as the C pedal. On one guitar I put it on my vertical and also lower 10 B-A. That works well with my RKR D-C# drop. On another guitar I raise 6 G#-Bb.

[Brett Lanier]

Brett, I hope I didn't misdirect you with the 9th string lower on the vertical, that was in conjunction with lowering 6 a whole.

Hey Dale, yeah I did understand it that way. I can see why you thought I thought otherwise.

For me, the impetus for going to an all pull guitar with all these extra changes is to make my make job easier, and play things even more accurately than I have been - which are predominantly Paul Franklin parts. About a decade ago i went through a minimalist phase... after realizing how much guys like Jimmy, the two Buddy's, and Jerry Byrd could do with so little. Glad I did! This was my knee lever setup for a bunch of years.

LKL - 4 & 8 raise (F lever)
LKR - lower 8 to Eb
RKR - raise 2 from D to D#

[Dale Rottacker]

Brett, I hope I didn't misdirect you with the 9th string lower on the vertical, that was in conjunction with lowering 6 a whole.

Hey Dale, yeah I did understand it that way. I can see why you thought I thought otherwise.

For me, the impetus for going to an all pull guitar with all these extra changes is to make my make job easier, and play things even more accurately than I have been - which are predominantly Paul Franklin parts. About a decade ago i went through a minimalist phase... after realizing how much guys like Jimmy, the two Buddy's, and Jerry Byrd could do with so little. Glad I did! This was my knee lever setup for a bunch of years.

LKL - 4 & 8 raise (F lever)
LKR - lower 8 to Eb
RKR - raise 2 from D to D#

You need less cause you understand WAY more than I ... Some of the extra stuff may just be crutches, but then again, Jimmy Crawford had 10x10

[Brett Lanier]

I've really enjoyed your videos Dale so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that!

Even though the F lever didn't show up til about 1967, I think the only three knee levers that are a must and important for beginners to understand when learning the neck are; the F lever, E lowers, and lowering string 2 to D. Everything else is just gravy imo. I've seen a lot of beginners get too dependent on the string 6 lower and 5 lower/A pedal split (for the minor) and I think it holds them back from learning the tuning and how all the diatonic chords can naturally flow into one another.

[Dale Rottacker]

I've really enjoyed your videos Dale so I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that!

I think it holds them back from learning the tuning and how all the diatonic chords can naturally flow into one another.

I agree, I’ve always kinda wished I’d have spent more time with less, (Maverick 3x1) … I’ve always thought that the guys who started without pedals/levers had a leg up in really understanding what was available.