Lower your B strings on E9th? Huh? whatha?

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 8 Jul 2003 4:44 pm

Lets say I wanted to lower my B strings on my E9th neck? what sort of benefit could I expect and where should I put the change?

Thanks,
Wayne Baker

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Jul 2003 5:25 pm

Wayne,

This is a very popular change and is fast becoming a standard. Lower both B's to Bb with a LKV. (Left knee vertical)

The most commmon use for this change is to get a great 9th chord two frets down from a given major chord. Example:

1. Key of C

2. Move down to the 6th fret and engage that lowering of 5 and 10 a half a tone, and you have a C9th chord on all the major chord strings. IE, 3, 4, 5 , 6, 8 and 10.

Another great use for it is splitting with the A pedal for an Augmented chord. IF you lower your 6th string a whole tone, you can use BOTH changes as a dom7 chord resolving to a major tonic chord on strings 5, 6 and 8.

Example:

1. Bar at 8th fret.

2. Engage LKV and RKL (lowers 6 a whole tone)

3. Now let off both knee levers as you bring in the E lever (lowering the E's). This took you from a D7 to a G chord. This has been a needed change on these strings, EVER since we've had the E lever IMO.

May Jesus bless you in your quests,

carl[This message was edited by C Dixon on 09 July 2003 at 07:47 AM.]

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 8 Jul 2003 5:49 pm

Carl, I understand tonic position as far as on a 6 string guitar and pentatonic scales are concerned. When you say tonic chord I'm not really following you. I apologize for my ignorance. If you wouldn't mind could you please explain the tonic chord. Thanks again for the help.
I may have to just drive up the road a piece and get a live lesson or two from you. I really appreciate this.

Thanks again,
Wayne Baker

Wayne Baker · Post by **Wayne Baker** » 8 Jul 2003 5:58 pm

Hey Carl, Also I saw on Paul Franklin's web site that he lowers his B's with a 4th pedal. What about that?

Thank you,
Wayne

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 8 Jul 2003 5:59 pm

Wayne, the "tonic" chord is the key signature chord in any key, IE, Key of E the tonic chord is E major.

long ago someone assigned the names:

1. Tonic

2. Subdominant

3. Dominant

For the three major chords in any major Key. Example:

Key of D

1. D is the tonic

2. G is the subdominant

and

3. A7 would be the dominant

hope this helps dear friend,

carl

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 8 Jul 2003 7:05 pm

I don't have this change, but I think it's also common to use it for a minor chord in the pedals-down position. Using it with the A pedal, like Carl describes in another context above, changes what would be a major third note in the pedals-down position major chord to a minor third. (Major chords are composed of the first, third, and fifth notes in a major scale. To change this major "triad" to a minor, just flat the third.)

Many people instead get this by just half-pedalling the A pedal.

So far, I haven't been too bothered by having to slide up a fret from pedals-down, and engage the lever which lowers 4 and 8, to get the minor.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 8 Jul 2003 8:38 pm

I love this 'pull', but prefer it on RKL - one of the uses I put it to is to get a diminished with A+B down and the E's and Bs lowered. I'd find that difficult if it were on LKV as my E's lower on my LKL.

Here's a nice C major to an F minor substitution:

C at the 3rd fret (8,6 & 5 with A+B down)- for a full measure -
Slide up to the 6th (9, 6 & 5 with A pedal)
Stay there and engage the 'B' lower as well.
Then 9,6 & 5 with no pulls, then -
Same strings, but just lower the 5th, let it all ring and play the 6th string...

Maybe then resolve to an A minor at the 3rd fret.

And so on....

RR

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 8 Jul 2003 11:27 pm

I have this change and use it a lot for AB down minor, but hadn't seen the 9th chord for it. The aug. I had found, but not the lowered 6th D7. But I think I have a funky 6th pull on that lever (wear), so I have avoided it till a new finger gets here.

As usual Carl just lets these pearls of harmonic wisdom,
fall on us like a gentile rain of knowlege!

Merci, Carl you are doing so much for new players, I don't think you even realize how elucidating your posts are for so many of us.

It's easy once you see it, but before you see it... it's a maze.

Bill Fulbright · Post by **Bill Fulbright** » 9 Jul 2003 2:30 am

CARL,

Great tip!! Duh. It was there all along. I can really use this change to a a great 9th sound alot....

Plus I have been working out some blues voicings and found on 4,5, 6 with LKR - raising E to F(day setup) to get that real straight "D7" triad so commonly used in a blues "walk-down" to the tonic. EG: Key of G: 3 frets above the tonic with LKR or 4th string raised 1/2 tone, you can hit 4,5 6, go down a fret, hit 4,5 6 again, go down a fret, hit 4,5,6 again, release the knee lever and hit 4,6 6 at the third fret for the tonic.

Kinda cool. Comes in very handy on blues tunes needing that type of sound.

It is always nice to find a familiar voicing from 6 string guitar I can employ on PSG.

------------------
Bill Fulbright
Mullen D-10 8x7; Gibson ES-165; Peavey Vegas 400;
ICQ# 2251620 My Music Site

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 9 Jul 2003 6:54 am

"Also I saw on Paul Franklin's web site that he lowers his B's with a 4th pedal. What about that?"

Wayne, if I am not mistaken, PF is lowering his B's AND 6th string G# a WHOLE tone with his 4th pedal. A lot of players are installing this new change. It is a great "lick" pedal. And when used properly, really embelishes back up to a singer. In some cases it gives a hauntingly beautiful sound when letting off the pedal slowly.

The knee lever lowering just the B's a half tone, is an entirely different thing.

Note: I made a mistake in my post concerning LKR (lowering the 6th sring a whole tone). It SHOULD have been RKL. I have corrected the post to reflect that.

Sorry bout that

I am humbled with the nice things said about my posts.

May Jesus bless you all always,

carl

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 9 Jul 2003 9:32 am

The change has a lot of uses, but I don't feel that making the pedals down chord minor is, or should be, one of them. For starts, unless you have a tunable split, the note that results from simultaniously raising and lowering the string is out of tune. The same chord can be played by moving up one fret and engaging the E to Eb knee lever with the pedals up, and when you kick in the B to Bb change in this position you get a very nice minor 9th chord or a passing tone from the 3rd of the chord to the 9th.

I have an arrangement of the Beatles' "Here There and Everywhere" that calls for the use of the B-Bb change and the E to F raise together.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 9 Jul 2003 4:59 pm

I must agree with Mike on this totally. I have never seen a use for the minor created by A and B and the knee lever. Mike is also correct in stating it must be a tunable split and if one tunes JI, this is not possible with this split.

carl

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 9 Jul 2003 5:50 pm

FWIW, I have tunable splits and use the A+B+LKV minor inversion all the time.
Same with G# to G lowers, which gives you the minor of whatever key you are playing open.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 9 Jul 2003 5:52 pm

I've only been playing for a couple of months, so keep that in mind, but I've been using the B>Bb (my fourth pedal) in combination with my fifth pedal which lowers G#'s to G. This way I can play the one chord on strings eight, six and five, then slide up one fret and push the pedals down for a diminished passing chord, then slide up to the next fret and roll off the B>Bb pedal for the two minor and so on all the way up the scale. C-C#dim-Dm-D#dim-Em etc.

-Travis

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 9 Jul 2003 6:11 pm

In addition to both B's to Bb on a vertical, I lower both B's to A's on an inner knee lever. I especially like that loose low A. Very guitar-like on a Push Pull.

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 10 Jul 2003 4:19 am

I have both 10 & 5 B - Bb and the difference between A+B split(B-Bb) to form a minor chord compared to making the same minor 1 fret higher w E's - Eb is noticed when you add the 7th string into the voicing because then you have a minor6th (also subst for dom9) or a minor7.

And the dim you get w A+B split(B-Bb) and E's-Eb is a very useful voicing.

Going from A7 to D9 can be done at 8th fret strings 5 4 3 E's-F, release E's back to E and lower 5th string to Bb to get the D9.
W B-Bb engaged slide up to 9th fret and you have an A chord w b7 3rd #5 on strings 5 4 3, press Bpedal while still having B-Bb and you have an Achord w b7 3rd 13, release Bpedal and slide to 10 fret for an E9 on strings 5 4 3.

The B-Bb is a very fun change to explore.

Bengt Erlandsen

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 10 Jul 2003 6:51 am

I've been using the B>Bb (my fourth pedal) in combination with my fifth pedal which lowers G#'s to GI've been using the B>Bb (my fourth pedal) in combination with my fifth pedal which lowers G#'s to G

Travis, you can get the same chord by simply engaging your E to F knee lever.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 10 Jul 2003 11:54 am

Hmm... good point--I knew that E>F lever had to be good for something.

But wouldn't I still need the G#>G pedal to get that minor chord two frets up? And if my foot's over by the fifth pedal anyways... Is there some other simple way to do the C-C#dim-Dm thing simply picking once and sliding the rest of the way?

-Travis

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 10 Jul 2003 2:05 pm

C - C#dim - D
8th fret strings 8 6 5 = C
8th fret strings 8 6 5 (E's-F) = C#dim
9th fret strings 8 6 5 (E's-F & half Aped) = Dm

Can also be found on strings 5 2 1 or 6 5 4 or 9 8 6 or 10 8 7 assuming a standard 3+4 setup w 2&9 Eb-C#/D-C# and 1&7 F#-G

Bengt Erlandsen

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 10 Jul 2003 2:52 pm

?[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 10 July 2003 at 06:51 PM.]

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 10 Jul 2003 4:23 pm

But wouldn't I still need the G#>G pedal to get that minor chord two frets up?

No. Stay in the same fret and use the B and C [pedals.

Is there some other simple way to do the C-C#dim-Dm thing?

C- 8th fret, strings 3,4,5 and 6 pedals up.
C#dim- pedals up, e-f knee lever engaged
Dm- B and C pedals

Travis, if you don't mind my saying so, you are thinking like a guitar player. I did too when I started out, as did most of us who start off on guitar. But your guitar knowledge is only helpful up to a point. You have to learn how to think like a steel player. I don't know how to tell you how to do that, but if you play long enough, it will happen.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 10 Jul 2003 8:36 pm

I like Travis' run using the B>Bb + G#>G.
It's simply... fun to play!
I like to end on a V7 using G#>G + A pedal.

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 12 Jul 2003 11:58 am

No, Mike, I don't mind at all. I agree that I'm thinking like a guitar player--or, more specifically, a dobro player--and it's one of the biggest challenges to try and figure out the more "pedal steelistic" ways of doing things. For some reason, fairly obvious things like getting the two minor with the B+C pedals don't really leap out at me yet.

There's at least one small advantage to the way I've been doing it for my particular setup though. I'm playing an extended E9 and my low twelfth string E doesn't have any changes on it. So using the B>Bb and G#>G allows me to get the half step up diminished and include the low twelfth string in the chord.

Still, it's good to know the more usual ways of doing things, so thanks for the advice.

-Travis

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 12 Jul 2003 12:09 pm

FWIW, I avoid that E>F change as much as possible.
That string just doesn't sound good to me in the context of the other strings, for example, used as a Dim chord.
The E>Eb+[A+LKV]+B Dim chord sounds killer (to me) from top to bottom... and it's more fun to play (again, to me).
BTW my LKV is B>Bb.
I know I try to incorporate anything I can from my guitar playing... and having the [A+LKV]+B minor chord in the pedals down position, and the G#>G minor chord in open position, are a direct take off from basic major/minor bar chords on guitar.
I ditched my standard C pedal altogether in favor of E>F# on a KL.
Makes it easier to learn and play songs (for me

)
[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 12 July 2003 at 01:11 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Jul 2003 4:26 pm

Pete wrote:

FWIW, I avoid that E>F change as much as possible.

I'm just the opposite. I use the F lever as much as possible. I get the country full step change (2nd to 3rd interval) by mixing it with the Eb lever, and the full step 7th change (root to 7th tone on the A pedal) is great in the F lever position.

The first two strings give you scale tones in the F lever position. It's one of the most useful positions on the E9th, IMHO.

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