Cabinet Drop

Lonnie Terry · Post by **Lonnie Terry** » 31 Mar 2003 9:57 am

Could someone define briefly what cabinet drop is No funnies please

New member Lonnie

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 31 Mar 2003 10:34 am

Lonnie not trying to be smart, but if you'll go to the search portion of this topic and insert "cabinet drop" without the quotes you'll get a real head start on the tens of replies you're gonna' get to your request..Read the one by Carl Dixon...good as any. You're welcome.

FRED

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Jon Light (deceased) · Post by **Jon Light (deceased)** » 31 Mar 2003 10:42 am

The short answer though, Lonnie, is that "cabinet drop" refers to the tendencies of the more tuning sensitive strings to go flat a bit when you depress pedals pulling other strings. The words presume that the body is sagging in the middle from thye pull of the pedal rods. It has been debated whether this is really the case or whether it is other factors such as stress on the axle of the changer.

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 31 Mar 2003 10:43 am

"Cabinet drop" is a catch all phrase that is used to define a problem MOST PSG's have. Very simply put, it is the problem where a NON pulled string or strings lower in pitch when OTHER string are pulled. The following two examples will indicate what I mean:

1. The 6th string drops in pitch, when the A or C pedal is engaged.

2. The 4th string drops in pitch, when the A and/or B pedals are engaged.

The theory according to some is that that added stress of pulling strings cause the cabinet to drop (or bow in the middle actually) reducing the distance from changer to nut ever so slightly. Still others debate that the changer axle is flexing.

There is debate as to whether this is happening or not. There is further debate that there is more than one cause for the problem. Ron Lashley said, it was caused by more than one thing. He never told me what those things were. He did say,

"The changer axle is NOT flexing!" I found him to be adament about this which he usually wasn't.

He went on to say, "I proved this on the original LeGrandes where the changer axle was supported between each finger, and this guitar had the same cabinet drop as the later Legrandes which do NOT support the changer between each finger."

He said this to me on several ocassions. But just exactly what is causing the cabinet drop I do not know. My suspicion is it is a combination of things. But I do not know for sure.

The LeGrande III and the later Excel SuperB models stop it dead cold in its tracks, "whatever the cause".

Praise God for builders like Ron Lashley (Emmons) and Mitsuo Fujii (Excel) who do not hide from the problem and in fact do something about it.

carl [This message was edited by C Dixon on 31 March 2003 at 10:48 AM.]

Fred Shannon · Post by **Fred Shannon** » 31 Mar 2003 11:17 am

You see Lonnie, I told you Carl Dixon could tell you in terms you could unnerstan'...Thanks again Carl...I'll betcha Lonnie thanks you too. Lonnie he did me the same way when I asked him....LOL

FRED

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The spirit be with you!
If it aint got a steel, it aint real

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 31 Mar 2003 11:34 am

I think 'detuning' is a more appropriate, generalized term that covers cabinet, axle, cross-shaft, and any other mechanical deformation that causes a string not affected by a given pedal, lever or combination to change pitch.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 31 Mar 2003 4:11 pm

Would it make sence to limit the use of pedals as much as posible? Using more bar movement,even bar slants.Play non pedal styles. Use pedals when needed, not just for the hick of it. I would be lost with out them,but I think I over use them.Is it any wonder why Lloyd Green kept -- his copedont the same,and never add a whole lot more to his set up. Less pushing pedals-- Less cabinet drop. I'm one to talk

Joe[This message was edited by Joe Miraglia on 31 March 2003 at 04:18 PM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 31 Mar 2003 4:30 pm

No funnies please

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 1 Apr 2003 7:08 am

Joe,

There are schools of thought that preach using less pedals and or knee levers is better. I hear the following all the time.

"LG doesn't do that". Or, "you don't need but 8 and 4", etc, etc.

My take on that is as follows. LLoyd Green is one of the greatest. He has a touch to die for. I admire and love him as a player; and even MORE as a person.

But this does NOT mean Lloyd set the standard. His not lowering the 4th string to and Eb makes NO sense to me. The same way JB's decision to NOT use pedals makes NO sense to me. BUT, it DID make sense to them (apparently

). And therein lies the point of this post.

Who made the rules? Who decided that 4 was the limit? Who deemed it a sin if a person has 7 or 8 or 9 or 17 zillion knee levers? Where are their credentials? Is Buddy using poor judgement because he has 7 knee levers and Lloyd only has 4? Or why use any pedals or knee levers at all? Why multiple strings, instead of just one? Etc.

I believe there is NOTHING wrong with whatever makes you comfortable when you play a musical instrument. If there is a change you hear in your head and you can put the change on your guitar, put that sapsucker on there and be happy.

And may Jesus bring you joy with it all the days of your life,

carl

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Apr 2003 7:51 am

Not picking on you, Carl, but the word STANDARD keeps popping up. I am a steel guitar anarchist and HATE THE WORD STANDARD. I know many folks have expressed the opinion that standardization is critical to more widespread acceptance of the instrument. I adamantly disagree and will defend to the death the PERSONAL nature of the pedal steel, which is diametrically opposite to the direction of standardization. All I care about when I listen to a musician is what goes into my ears. All the rest is FLUFF.

I don't care if the player uses a metal bar or a plastic bar.
I don't care what brand of guitar it is (although I can hear the difference and there are those I prefer).
I don't care if the guitar has cabinet drop or detuning or whatever -- as long as the player is not distractingly out of tune.
I don't care if it has none or 50 pedals and levers -- that's secondary to the music. I expect an experienced player to have on his/her guitar the changes required to express his/her musical ideas. All the 'who puts what where' and 'you have to pull both strings' is really superfluous.

The only value I see in standards is a base configuration which, for me is about 3 pedals and 3 levers on E9 and about 4 pedals and 2 levers on C6, which I get with 6 pedals and 6 levers on a universal. This base configuration covers most of the teaching material and allows a beginner to use commonly available courses and play some of the 'legacy sounds' of the instrument. Beyond that, I don't care. It's the MUSIC that comes out of the instrument that counts.

(phew! sorry . . . rant over . . . I feel better now . . . the lithium must be kicking in)

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 April 2003 at 07:56 AM.]

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 1 Apr 2003 10:57 am

I believe the term "standard" could be anything that is considered "usual" or the "norm. However, it doesn't have to mean the "minimum."
I believe it is the search for creativity or "new things" by what ever means possible, whether it is by "hands" or "additional pedals or knee levers," that can ultimately lead to what can become the standard.
Some us prefer to be comfortable within the comfines of the "standard" while some of us prefer to continue to reach out for new territory. Success in new territory can lead to something becoming popular, then becoming the "norm" which then becomes the standard.
As I said before, a standard doesn't have to be the "minimum," but rather the acceptance of successful experimentation. Just ask Buddy or Jimmy Day (if it were still possible) what their idea of "standard" is, or maybe Jerry Bird or Julian Tharp (again if it were possible), or even Lloyd or Chalker (once again, if it were possible), or how about Paul Franklin or "Sneaky Pete." I think each would have a different answer as to what "standard" would be to them.
I play a steel that has 8 knees and 8 pedals, not because I can't play with anything less. For me, I would prefer not to play with anything less than what I would consider to be a "standard" 8/5 setup, however I do not have any problem playing with less.
Question: what is standard to you? Can you play with less if you had to? Would you know what to do with more?
For me, I find reaching out for more is exciting and keeps me interested, therefore my "standard" continually moves up as I find success in experimentation with new pedal changes, etc. But, I also enjoy trying to find my way around on something like a practice board or lap steel and find it exciting in finding something new there.

IMHO,

Dave

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Apr 2003 12:29 pm

As I said before, a standard doesn't have to be the "minimum," but rather the acceptance of successful experimentation. Just ask Buddy or Jimmy Day (if it were still possible) what their idea of "standard" is, or maybe Jerry Bird or Julian Tharp (again if it were possible), or even Lloyd or Chalker (once again, if it were possible), or how about Paul Franklin or "Sneaky Pete." I think each would have a different answer as to what "standard" would be to them.

You just proved my point, Dave. There is no real standard if it means something different to different people.

A standard that isn't the same among everybody is not really a standard. A standard that changes often is of very little value. I'm perfectly comfortable with the fact that there IS NO STANDARD WITH PEDAL STEEL, once you get beyond the minimum changes.

The only reason I mentioned 'minimum' is that the ABC pedals and the levers that raise/lower E's and lower 2nd and/or 9th is the closest thing we have to a standard. I suspect if you asked those same folks (with the possible exception of Jerry Byrd) what the MINIMUM 3x3 E9 configuration is you'd get a pretty consistent answer. If you go beyond that and start adding other changes, there are many choices and I'd wager that it's hard to find many people who play an 8 and 8 setup that's exactly like yours. It's the word STANDARD that I find meaningless in this context.
"Standards are wonderful. We have so many to choose from".

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 April 2003 at 12:40 PM.]

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 1 Apr 2003 12:51 pm

A phrase we used to say in the datacom/telecom business is "yes, there is a 'standard', but a sxtandard is a spec on paper that very VERY few people actually follow."

C Dixon · Post by **C Dixon** » 2 Apr 2003 7:44 am

'Tis true; the PSG is a very personalized instrument and has been since its inception. However, I believe with all my heart, this is changing. I further believe there are several factors contributing to this.

This forum is just one powerful example of how ideas "meld" things; which prior to its inception ONLY Scotty's ISGC could do. The results of this is a coming together of ideas not possible otherwise.

Because the steel guitar is soooooo few in number (in reference to other instruments), and since those few are scattered all over the earth, it was only natural that different directions and "detours" would ensue.

But again, I believe this is changing. How many times have we read, "I never knew about that until I started reading this forum."

Also, remember the word "standard" has never meant absolute. It is almost synonymous with the word majority. As such there IS indeed a majority (standard if you will) emerging fast with our beloved instrument.

There is NO question about what ANY one finds if they check out all the guitars that the disributors bring to most any steel show. There has got to be a reason why they all follow the 8 X 4 standard (now ever more becoming an 8 X 5 standard). AND they are setup as follows in the "majority" of cases:

1. Emmons setup--A B C

2. "Standard" C6 setup.

LKL raises the E's

LKR lowers the E's

LKV lowers the B's

RKL Raises 1 a half a tone and lowers 6 a whole tone (E9th) raises 4 a half a tone (C6th) (This standard is changing rapidly to raise 1 a whole tone instead of the half tone because of Paul Franklin).

RKR lowers 2 a whole tone (with half-stop) and lowers 9 a half tone (E9th) lowers 3 a half a tone (C6th).

Of course, some buy those guitars, or order them setup differently. I suggest this will always be this way. But less and less I predict.

However, most simply keep them the way they are, or buy them according to what is fast becoming the norm.

IMO of course,

carl

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 2 Apr 2003 12:54 pm

Well said, Carl.

Dave

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 2 Apr 2003 1:24 pm

Since this topic is actually about cabinet drop, let me just say that the issue of cabinet drop can vary from brand to brand, due to design and structural differences. This could be the reason for the differences in opinion about what causes cabinet drop and whether or not it exist. On the other hand, there are people who say their guitar does not have any cabinet drop, as well as those who don't hear it. In "every steel guitar" I have ever checked there was some form of cabinet drop or detuning in some form or the other. It is something that is inherent in the structural design of every "pedal" steel guitar, albeit to different degrees.
Depending on the player and pedal setup, you may notice it or may not. It may bother you or it may not. With expertise, anyone can play around it as most capable players have done probably since the innception of the "pedal" steel guitar. Because a person can play around it or doesn't notice it does not mean that it does not exist. Some of the guitars that people have adamantly declared did not have cabinet drop I have checked later when they weren't around to find that it indeed did exist in some form in their guitar.
The fact that the issue of cabinet drop or detuning does exist is varified by the steel guitar makers who have decided to adress the issue instead of ignore it such as "Emmons L-III" and the new "Millinium" guitars. Instead of trying to argue that it doesn't exist, they have gone headlong into finding a way to address it.

Dave

Jim Palenscar · Post by **Jim Palenscar** » 2 Apr 2003 11:17 pm

Actually the "Standard" is the current setup by either Paul Franklin or Buddy Emmons about 2 years after they make a change