Newbie questions extravaganza!

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 14 Feb 2003 9:34 pm

Hi there, this is my first post (although I've been lurking for a while!), so bear with me. I have been playing 6-string lap (mostly acoustic) for a couple of years, but recently I've been thinking about getting into pedal steel. My first time seeing any live pedal steel was a few months ago, a local man named Charlie Hase. I was blown away by it (he plays a D-10 Zumsteel with the back neck tuned to his own 8-string "C6 without the 6ths" tuning which he strums like David Lindley on speed).

Anyways, long story as short as possible, I'm trying to figure out what kind of steel to buy. I don't have much money, meaning most double necks are probably out. So it would either be an S-10 or S-12 that I'm looking at. My feeling is that a used S-12 would be best, because I could set it up as a 10-string E9 to learn on (or perhaps 12-string extended E9), then later change it to some 12 string tuning like a sacred steel tuning (seems likely I would do that, I just saw Chuck Campbell a few days ago--very nice), or a universal tuning, and then decide what I like best after a couple of years.

My questions are these:

1. Does this sound reasonable or ridiculous? Why?

2. Is it easy to learn to change the tuning myself in the way I described, or will I have to have someone else do it (which might be a bit of a challenge here in Vancouver)? What's ACTUALLY involved in changing a tuning (or copedant, I guess, is the word)?

3. When buying an S-12, what are the absolute minimum number of pedals and knee levers I would need to do have the versatility I described? Obviously at least 3+4 for a basic E9, but what about some of the other tunings?

4. I notice that some steels are "double raise/double lower" or "double raise/single lower" or what have you. It seems like more should be better, but for what I described above, what should a guitar have? Would "double raise/double lower" be sufficient? More? Less?

I have lots more questions

but these are the major ones that I can remember at this time. As you can see, they can all be kind of summed up in one vague question: What is the absolute minimum I can get away with while still retaining enough flexibility to try out all the major setups (excepting double neck setups). Thanks for reading!

-Travis

P.S. When it comes to bar length, do you measure only the flat part which comes into contact with the strings, leaving out the rounded tip? Or do you measure the whole thing from end to end?[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 14 February 2003 at 09:36 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Feb 2003 9:56 pm

Switching tunings is pretty hard to do. A lot of people never get beyond the 10 string E9th. The Sacred Steel E7 is interesting, but it's very different from E9. If you're planning on using the same guitar, you have to be prepared to give up almost everything you've learned when you switch tunings from E9 to E7.

Extended E9 and E9/B6 Universal (U-12) aren't radically different from the S-10 E9, so the transition is much easier. C6 is another animal entirely.

If you're really looking to play that rockin' E7 sound, you should just start with that. There's no instructional material, though, and you might have a rough time working in country bands. You can play country on the E7 - it has the basic changes - but there are specific "hit record" licks that you'll have a hard time getting.

My controversial opinions: <ul>
[*]I'm an advocate of 5+5 - 5 pedals and 5 knee levers. I feel that this is the optimal configuration, regardless of tuning.

[*]I believe that 3+3 is the minimum for learning to play E9. Many disagree.

[*]Double raise, double lower is the minimum changer requirement for modern copedents.
[/list]

Changing the copedent is easy on some guitars, and difficult on others. Ask around about a brand before you buy.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 15 Feb 2003 7:34 pm

I also believe that ,as Bobby says, 5 and 5 is pretty much ideal. One good tuning is listed under tunings, "Ask Bud", he has listed a 5/5 E9/6 12 string tuning that will play most all the stuff you hear, both country E9 and B6 . Pretty neat!...al

Doug Seymour · Post by **Doug Seymour** » 16 Feb 2003 7:34 am

I may be wrong, but in a used steel a triple
raise, double lower probably would be about the same price and then you have the extra
capabilties if you ever want them down the road. Changing set-ups is much easier mechanically on the steel itself than it is in your head! Ability to play it, I mean.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 16 Feb 2003 8:55 am

Try to figure out what you would most like to sound like, before you commit to a particular setup. I bought a single neck C6th guitar because I am more interested in rock and jazz than in traditional country sounds. Listen to as many steel players as possible, in different styles - the CD's b0b has on this forum are an ideal place to start.

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 16 Feb 2003 1:10 pm

I don't have much money, meaning most double necks are probably out

Most maybe, but not all. Do you have $1000? If you do, look for a used MSA D-10 from the mid 70's to early 80's. They usually are sold for between $900 to $1200, which may not be much more than what you'd have to pay for a name brand used S-10. Many players love them and Curly Chalker, one of the greatest players of all time, played one. If you want, post a request in the Buy and Sell section of the Forum asking for an MSA D-10. I think you'll get a couple of responses. From there, you can probably get a phone number/e-mail address and negotiate a deal.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 16 February 2003 at 01:20 PM.]

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 16 Feb 2003 4:45 pm

Thanks everybody for the answers so far, very helpful.

Sadly, Jeff, I don't have $1000, otherwise I would probably do as you suggest. I have about $1000 Canadian, which is only about $650US.

I realize I'm not gonna get the world's greatest steel guitar for that amount of money, but it's what I can afford at this time, and I want one sooner rather than later.

More questions:

1. I have a John Pearse bullet bar for my lap steel (maybe one of the "cryogenic" ones, I don't know 'cause it was used). How do I measure it so I can compare its length to stuff I see online for sale? Do I measure just the flat part and leave out the rounded tip? Or do I measure from end to end?

2. If I decide I want to learn to mess around with the undercarriage of my pedal steel and do stuff like add knee levers or what have you, what's the best way to learn to do that? Are there books?

3. What are some suggestions for great "must-have" pedal steel CD's? Doesn't really matter what genre, just albums that have great playing on them.

(edit: I see there's actually already a thread going on more or less this topic in "Steel Players".)

4. A variation on question three: I don't get to hear too much live pedal steel where I live. What are some albums that will give me a good example of the tone of various guitars? Is there an album that has say, a definitive Sho-Bud tone captured on it, or a definitive MSA tone, etc?

-Travis[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 16 February 2003 at 04:52 PM.]

Jeff Evans · Post by **Jeff Evans** » 16 Feb 2003 5:21 pm

There's a Sho-Bud on Buy & Sell for less than $1000 US. You might almost be in the neighborhood dollar-wise of other lower-profile-but-fully-functional D-10s such as BMI, Dekley, or ZB.

Surely someone would work some terms with you. If not, Credit Union? Credit card?

You'll not find a consensus here (on the Forum) on definitive tones, but the Canadian Northern Steel album would at least let you hear some examples of a few brands. Rusty Walker contributed a nice, meaty Sho-Bud sound on that recording. Other comprehensive listen lists have been compiled on the Forum, and one is underway currently.

Jim Burden custom cuts stainless steel bars reasonably, and I have an extra one 3 3/8 inches x 15/16 inch diameter if you don't find something you like better.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 16 Feb 2003 7:49 pm

Yes, the Northern Steel CD not only features a wide variety of styles, it also lists the brand of pedal steel used by each artist. Very helpful!

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 17 Feb 2003 12:05 am

Travis;

Are you familiar with Rufus' Guitar Shop? At one time they had a pic of a nice Sho-Bud for sale locally on their bulletin board.

It's been some time (too long!) since I've been out on the coast, but it'd be worth giving them a call @ 604-222-1717, ask fo Richard, Chuck or Jennie.

Also, you might wanna look up Bruce Hamilton; he's on the Forum, is a fantastic player and a real pro when it comes to steel setup/repair/modifications

Don't forget the BC Steel Jam the May long weekend in Okanagan Falls.

------------------
Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 17 Feb 2003 11:25 am

Actually I live pretty close to Rufus Guitar Shop. They have a new Carter Starter for sale right now but I'm looking for something a little more capable (and cheaper! A new Carter Starter costs $1350CDN!).

That Northern Steel compilation sounds interesting, I'll look into that.

-Travis

John Lacey · Post by **John Lacey** » 18 Feb 2003 4:15 am

Travis, Bruce Hamilton is definitely a good guy to get to know. He refurbishes guitars and might know of a used one for sale on the coast. Here's his email:
bahamil@telus.net

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 18 Feb 2003 6:47 am

Be careful about spending too little.

I know of more than one instance where a newbie paid ~$500, only to discover another $500 was required to make the instrument playable. They eventually gave up.

Billy Woo · Post by **Billy Woo** » 18 Feb 2003 2:21 pm

I just saw a 1981 Sho-Bud ProII right here in the buy/sell section for $850 clams, definately a real decent price for a great Steel Geetar...Uff Da

Bronco Billy
Zumsteel U-12, Sierra U-12

J J Harmon · Post by **J J Harmon** » 19 Feb 2003 10:58 am

I'm getting into this a little late but this is kind of my story.

I bought a 2000 Carter D10 8+5 with a Nash 400(La May) and videos, books, casettes, bars and vol pedal all for 2500 delivered.

I can't play a lick on the thing yet.

It is a different animal from a non-pedal.