How Safe Is PayPal???

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 27 Aug 2011 6:00 am

I posted my 12-string Rickenbacker on Craig's List early yesterday morning and got a hit late that afternoon.

The guy definitely wants to buy it (for his son).

He says he works off shore as a Petroleum Engineer and has trouble with the phones out there.

He wants to pay me using PayPal. I don't have a PayPal account and know little about it.

He says his "agent" will come by my house and pick up the Rick; ie. - there would be no shipping involved. So he needs my address.

Should I be wary of this whole deal? What could possibly happen adversely?

Oh, BTW - on Craig's List you have to choose one, and only one, specific region to post an ad. My region was obviously Western Massachusetts; I'm wonderin' how this guy found the ad; as I know there aren't any off shore oil rigs around here. There may be a few off Cape Cod.

Thanks all.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 27 Aug 2011 6:44 am

It sounds a little "fishy" to me.
I use PayPal all the time with nary a problem.
It is especially handy for overseas transactions.

Hook Moore · Post by **Hook Moore** » 27 Aug 2011 7:39 am

I've not had any problems with Paypal. In this case I would tell him to send the money to his agent and he could pay you when he picks up the guitar.
Hook

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 27 Aug 2011 10:42 am

on Craig's List you have to choose one, and only one, specific region to post an ad. My region was obviously Western Massachusetts; I'm wonderin' how this guy found the ad; as I know there aren't any off shore oil rigs around here. There may be a few off Cape Cod.

True, but a person can look at the listings in any region.

It sounds weird to me too. But, I would think that after Paypal transferred his funds, it would be fairly safe. But, I always have problems when they "my agent will drop by to pick it up". Offer to ship it to his agent instead.

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 27 Aug 2011 11:30 am

It doesn't sound weird to me at all. It is DEFINITELY a Nigerian 419 scam! I see them frequently, on websites that have buy and sell areas, but are not applying my Nigerian Blocklist.

William Lake · Post by **William Lake** » 27 Aug 2011 11:35 am

Don't do it Chip. Have his "agent" bring cash when he picks up the guitar.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 27 Aug 2011 11:50 am

I would tell him it's sold. I wouldn't let this person know where you live. Or at the very least, meet him at a public location.

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 27 Aug 2011 2:02 pm

Guys, let me explain how this scam works.

A seller on a forum lists an expensive, or semi-expensive piece of equipment for sale on Craigslist, or a forum that allows buying and selling. The seller thinks that only local people or members of said forum can read the ads, but they are mistaken. Unless IP blocklists have been applied by the security persons running the website, or server, anybody, anywhere can read those postings.

In cases where the sellers give an email address, even scammers in Nigeria can send you an email, with the very language that was used in the scam letter that Chip-Meister received.

Let's play along and see what usually happens when the seller replies to the supposed out of the Country buyer.

The "buyer" sends an urgent reply, thanking the seller profusely and begging him or her not to sell it to anybody else. In fact, to ensure that this doesn't happen, the buyer is willing to overpay to ensure that he gets it. Somebody happens to owe the buyer some money for another item sold by him and he wants you to accept the certified check from that third party, in an amount way in excess of what the buyer has offered to pay you. Just deposit the check and send the buyer the difference, minus a percentage to cover your hassles. Since the buyer is traveling abroad, he wants his excess money sent to him by Western Union.

Thrilled, the seller agrees. A few days later a certified check arrives, maybe even by Courier, or Registered Mail. As explained, it is made out for much more that what the seller is asking for his item (guitar). He rushes to his bank, or payment store, and asks them to verify that the certified check is authentic. After a brief scan you are told it looks good. You give your identification to the payment store, or else use a deposit slip at your bank or credit union. Then, you cash it and go to the nearest Western Union office and wire the excess agreed upon amount to the off-shore buyer, keeping your fees and price for the instrument.

You wait in anticipation for the shipper to come and pick up the item you sold. If you are truly unlucky, that will actually happen. But, in most cases, you'll sit there for a couple of weeks, wondering why they haven't come to get the paid for item. Then the bank, or check cashing company calls you..... "Is the the Chip-Meister? I am Mr. So and So, with the Chase Bank in which you have an account. You recently deposited/cashed a certified check in the amount of x dollars. We are sorry to inform you that this check is in fact counterfeit. We have debited your account in the full amount of the money we gave you for the check, plus handling fees for attempting to cash or deposit an NSF financial instrument.

In the event that you do not have sufficient funds in your bank to cover the loss, or in the event you cashed it at a check cashing store, you will be sent a registered letter informing you that you have x number of days to cover the amount in full, plus overdraft/NSF fees, or be taken to court.

While all of this is happening to the seller, the buyer has picked up his cash, the same day you sent it, at a Western Union office in Lagos Nigeria, and is long gone. The "excess" overpayment money you sent is untraceable and gone forever.

In the unlikely event that a cartage company actually picks up your "sold" item, it is in all likelihood gone in 60 seconds as well.

I am a trained 419 scam hunter and know of what I speak. It is my Nigerian Blocklist that is protecting this forum from Nigerian scammers that were pillaging sellers until I stepped in and began blocking them from accessing this website (in 2005).

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 28 Aug 2011 2:32 am

Thanks everyone, for the warnings. They've been well heeded.

I was away from the PC all day yesterday, so I'm getting back now.

"Charles McEntire" [would-be buyer] has not re-tried emailing me since his first two inquiries.

I'm just gonna ignore him, if he, indeed, tries to keep this going.

I appreciate everyone's effort, and especially to Wizardo, for that rather lengthy explanation as to why not to deal with "Charles McEntires".

Here are photos of his two emails:

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 28 Aug 2011 8:16 am

Chip;
Did you notice the headline in bold capital letters along the top of the Craigslist email notification? It is warning you to avoid scams by only dealing locally with local buyers who pay you in cash, in person. Virtually all offers to buy from non-local persons requesting shipping of the items out of State, are fraudulent. Craigslist warns you about this.

The PayPal payment method is a variation of the certified check scam, with a difference. Here is what one people have learned when contacted about their Craigslist items for sale:

THERE IS NO CASH SENT TO PAYPAL!! Instead, you receive a bogus email which appears to be from PayPal - but is a fake, with PayPal images and some similar wording and counterfeit, sound-alike URLs in links. However, the salutation will be the prefix of your email address. In real PayPal payment notifications you are addressed by your legal name, as registered with PayPal.

The email states that the funds will appear in your paypal account after confirmation of shipping is received, using the links they supply (fraudulent). The address given to ship to is not PayPal Verified, which is against PayPal's advice. In a real PayPal transaction you are notified after payment has been received and you are warned to check to ensure that the buyer is shown to have a Verified PayPal ship to address! Of course, when you log into your PayPal to verify that payment was made no such transaction is pending and they have taken your goods.

Another variation of the PayPal scam is where you are paid up front, sometimes in excess, and PayPal sends you a notice that you should ship, but only to a PayPal Verified address. Your buyer tells you that they have a Verified address, but are working or traveling out of the Country, or State, and need the item to be sent directly to their relative. You agree and ship the item and a week or two later PayPal reclaims the money after the issuing bank demands a chargeback, due to stolen numbers.

When people sign up for PayPal accounts and want to receive money paid by debit or credit cards, rather than by direct member to member transfers, they must provide a bank account and back-up credit/debit card to act as backup funding. If you transfer all of your money out of your PayPal account and the deal is fraudulent, PayPal will attempt to recover the funds from your bank. If unsuccessful, they may sue you for the money plus recovery costs.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 29 Aug 2011 12:35 pm

Boy, these jack-offs will stop at nothing.

I did realize the PayPal Advisory, but for some [dumb] reason I figured "Charles McEntire" was showing me that he is on the up and up by displaying that PPA.

So that advisory must be SOP on PP's part.

Thanks again Wiz; I appreciate you explaining, actually, some of these complicated interactions.

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 29 Aug 2011 12:52 pm

Chip Fossa wrote:Boy, these jack-offs will stop at nothing.

I did realize the PayPal Advisory, but for some [dumb] reason I figured "Charles McEntire" was showing me that he is on the up and up by displaying that PPA.

So that advisory must be SOP on PP's part.

Thanks again Wiz; I appreciate you explaining, actually, some of these complicated interactions.

You are most welcome, Chip-Meister. I am here to serve and protect.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 2 Sep 2011 6:52 am

PayPal itself can be a jack-off, too.
I did a graphic design job for a guy last month. I sent him the digital files, he approved them and paid me through PP. Now I get an email from PP saying he's disputing the charge, and my PP account now has a negative balance and I can't even use PP unless I resolve it or until PP and his credit card issuer resolve it.

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 2 Sep 2011 3:32 pm

Thanks C#,

You never can be too sure. I hope you get the mess straightened out.

I don't know how many days now, as I'm typing, but 'ole "Charley" has not been heard from. Good enuff.

Best of luck, Cal

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 2 Sep 2011 4:40 pm

Chip Fossa wrote:Thanks C#,

You never can be too sure. I hope you get the mess straightened out.

I don't know how many days now, as I'm typing, but 'ole "Charley" has not been heard from. Good enuff.

Best of luck, Cal

Ya know, Zeke, yer gettin' ta soundin' a lot like old Farley. You ain't hear'd from 'im in a week and I bet I know why. I warned him not to tease Floyd while he's feedin'!

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 2 Sep 2011 5:38 pm

No truer words of wiZdom, about the scam world, have been espoused by our premier watchdog,
Professor Wizardo>>>>>>>>>

one day surely, to become Professor Emeritus in Residence, at the Steel Forum School of Advanced Studies.

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 2 Sep 2011 5:50 pm

Chip Fossa wrote:No truer words of wiZdom, about the scam world, have been espoused by our premier watchdog,
Professor Wizardo>>>>>>>>>

one day surely, to become Professor Emeritus in Residence, at the Steel Forum School of Advanced Studies.

You forgot to mention that I am a graduate of E Pluribus Unum

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 2 Sep 2011 6:07 pm

BUT.....[esp. Wizardo], why doesn't PayPal and
Craig's List have 419 Scam Hunters such as yourself?

These big-shot websites certainly could and should provide better protection.
How can they say or espouse that they are a "secure" site, when we are hearing all the time, now, about rip-offs?

Hey, I just work for the State. So I know nuttin'. $:\$

$:\$

Wiz Feinberg · Post by **Wiz Feinberg** » 2 Sep 2011 10:01 pm

Chip Fossa wrote:BUT.....[esp. Wizardo], why doesn't PayPal and
Craig's List have 419 Scam Hunters such as yourself?

These big-shot websites certainly could and should provide better protection.
How can they say or espouse that they are a "secure" site, when we are hearing all the time, now, about rip-offs? ...

Craigslist doesn't claim to offer any protection. In fact, they warn sellers about scams that occur all the time. Here is what is says at the top of an item I recently posted to Craigslist, in Flint:

Avoid scams and fraud by dealing locally! Beware any deal involving Western Union, Moneygram, wire transfer, cashier check, money order, shipping, escrow, or any promise of transaction protection/certification/guarantee.

Craigslist has never approached me about blocking Nigerians, or anybody else.

Dale Gray · Post by **Dale Gray** » 6 Sep 2011 9:35 am

Off shore phone? Don't make me laugh. As a former offshore communication tech. with Motorola I assure you all communication was 2-way radio, make that plural radios. Dale.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 11 Sep 2011 7:08 am

Haven't heard from PayPal, my account still has a negative balance and I still can't use it.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 20 Sep 2011 6:58 am

PayPal, or the credit card company, ruled in favor of the buyer and my account still has a negative balance. Buyer was claiming unauthorized use of his credit card. But why should that affect me? I'm also in the hole an additional $20 that the credit card company charged PayPal for the chargeback.

I designed 2 ebook covers and the books are for sale right now on the internet.

PayPal does have a sellers' protection policy, but it doesn't cover digital goods.

So, in answer to the OP's question: no, PayPal isn't very safe.

Johnny Thomasson · Post by **Johnny Thomasson** » 25 Sep 2011 4:16 pm

PayPal always rules in favor of the buyer in disputes. The vast majority of PayPal users are buyers rather than sellers, which is why they lean in favor of buyers in disputed transactions. But damn, you'd think they could at least be reasonable and look at disputes case by case. The customer isn't always right, I don't care what anybody says. Sorry you got shafted, Cal.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 29 Sep 2011 8:14 pm

So what this guy does, as best as I can figure, is buy digital goods from me and who knows how many other graphic designers, and then dispute the transaction. And since PayPal doesn't protect sellers of digital goods, he gets his money back. I Googled this guy, and he's a known scammer. He's real popular on the Ripoff Report. PayPal doesn't care. I did complain to the publisher who had his titles and they took them down. Small consolation.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 30 Nov 2011 1:02 pm

See my above posts.

Got an email today from PP.

Hello Cal Sharp,

We are pleased to inform you that we have successfully disputed chargeback
case #PP-XXX-XXX-XXX-XXX. The buyer's card issuer has decided in your
favor and within seven days you will receive reimbursement for $60.00 USD.

It is PayPal's standard practice to dispute wrongful chargebacks. One of
the benefits of using PayPal is that our team of chargeback specialists
will gather the necessary information from you and work with the credit
card company until the chargeback is resolved.

This is after they threatened me for 3 months with additional charges if I didn't fix my negative balance, and caused a lot of inconvenience with my graphic design business.

But they sent me an email 2 days previous to this that said, in part:

Hello Cal Sharp,

We're writing to let you know about a change to your PayPal account.

Starting 11/28/2011, money from payments you receive will be placed in a pending balance for up to 21 days. By doing this, we're making sure that there's enough money in your account to cover potential refunds or claims.

Even though you can't access the money right away, please ship orders quickly and communicate with your customers. After 21 days, you can withdraw money from each payment as long as the customer hasn't filed a dispute, chargeback, claim, return, or reversal.

No mention has been made of the additional $20 they debited my account for the chargeback.

The Steel Guitar Forum

How Safe Is PayPal???

How Safe Is PayPal???

Off shore phone?

Update on my PayPal issue