Buying A New Pc - Need Advice

[Jeff Strouse]

Hi everyone –

I need a new computer. But the choices are many, and I want to be sure I get the right thing for what I want to do. I’ve been to Best Buy and Comp USA. Best Buy had a better selection, but Comp USA offered to custom build a machine to ensure expandability later. Is it better to buy online or in a local store? Custom build one or buy a pre made system and upgrade it?

I want to experiment with home recording...BIAB, multi-track recording…I have a small mixer unit I can plug instruments and a microphone into. (I assume to accomplish this, the mixer should plug into the sound card somehow…so I would need a good quality sound card). I’d like to digitize my music collection of LPs and cassettes, either with a USB turntable, or via my stereo RCA jacks.

I’d like a TV Tuner card, to watch and record TV; and then be able to make DVDs of shows (or editing out parts of shows). I’d also like to digitize my VCR tapes, load DVDs to edit them to custom DVDs.

I figure I should get a Quad Core processor for sure, along with 4 to 8 GB of RAM. But not sure on the rest.

Any suggestions would be most helpful.

Thanks!

[Wiz Feinberg]

Jeff;
Vista or Windows 7 Ultimate will do fine for your use. Be sure to get lots of RAM, a fast multi-core CPU, with a huge heatsink, a big power supply with a 4" fan and top notch add-on audio and video cards (not built-in chipsets).

If you build it now you will have to use Vista. You can buy the Windows 7 upgrade when it is released later this year (last qtr). Windows 7 is much faster than Vista, in my opinion and beta testing. Fast counts in audio and video and Ultimate has everything you could need, now including scheduled full image backups of the entire hard drive structure.

[Mitch Drumm]

Jeff:

In my opinion:

The best thing you could do is build it yourself where you have total control over all components.

I assume you have ruled that out. If so, I would go with Dell unless you have a KNOWN HIGH QUALITY local builder from whom you can specify all components.

It can be a crapshoot finding a quality local builder nowadays compared to 10 or 15 years ago. Computer shops aren't as plentiful as they used to be and it can be very difficult getting reliable word of mouth on a builder from a non-greenhorn.

I would put more trust in Dell than Comp USA or Best Buy. Dell builds thousands of machines a week and you are not likely to get second rate parts or face compatibility issues. I thought Comp USA was in or near bankruptcy?

I think Dell is available at some retail outlets now, but I would custom configure it online and have it shipped.

You can always have a bad experience with any builder--I personally swore off Dell due to an inexcusable warranty issue involving a dozen phone calls to India to get a monitor replaced. I just think that you are less likely to have a bad experience with Dell than Best Buy/Comp USA. God help you in general if you have to deal with customer service post-purchase with anybody.

Yes, get as much RAM as you can afford. I think only 64 bit Windows can address more than 3 plus gigs of RAM, but I would get 6 or 8 gigs even with 32 bit now, because RAM is dirt cheap and you can always upgrade to 64 bit. Most people are still choosing 32 bit, but that might change in several years.

Dell has tended to charge too much for RAM, so if you go with Dell, I would get as little RAM as possible on the machine and then immediately buy more from Newegg and put it in yourself.

I just looked at processor prices at Newegg. A quad core Q9550 sells for 275 and runs at 2.83 ghz. A dual core E8600 sells for 270 and runs at 3.33 ghz. Most online discussion contends that most users will appreciate the extra .5 ghz more than the extra two cores. Three years from today, that might have changed.

Re quad versus dual. The rule of thumb is that most people are better off buying a dual core than a quad core AT THE SAME PRICE POINT, because not many applications are yet written to take proper advantage of all 4 cores in a quad. Of course, if price is little or no object, knock yourself out with a quad--they range in price from 170 (2.33 ghz) to 325 (3.0 ghz).



If you are willing to spend above 250 for the processor and are leaning toward a quad, consider Intel's latest "Nehalem" processors. I think only 3 models are currently available. The cheapest is the 920, which runs at 2.66 ghz and sells for 280. It is supposed to outrun any of the earlier quad models, particularly for video editing. Dell is selling Nehalem 920 machines for 1100 on up in their "Studio XPS desktop" line, and Nehalems will become more prominent over the next 6 months. Nehalem can address a lot more RAM than earlier processors.

http://tinyurl.com/cku82e

Look at the above link for various threads discussing quad versus dual core at the ARS forums. Lots of good reading at that site.

If you are going to get a custom build from Dell or locally, post back on this forum and we can help you with the configuration.

[Jeff Strouse]

Thanks, Wiz and Mitch!

I use XP Pro now. I heard bugs were worked out of Vista, but that it is still not as stable as XP Pro. I like the idea of the Windows 7, but don't have the luxury to wait...

My system is totally freezing daily...multiple times...Sometimes I can click on icons and restart buttons, but nothing happens. I have to turn it off manually.

I thought of the iMac...I like the all in one unit that I could move from room to room (assuming I add a remote keyboard and mouse), but I'm not ready to jump from the PC world just yet. Althohgh my Mac friends are all telling me I'd make a big mistake to get a PC (but that's probably another thread! )

I know nothing about building computers from scratch, so would be at the mercy of the sales guy at CompUSA.

But I like the idea of a custom built system. The Comp USA guy said it's about the same price or not much more, and I won't have a lot of preloaded fluff. On-line I could save tax, but couldn't be as directly involved in the process.

Are their any on-line sites that build from scratch with a warranty and good tech support? If I bought locally, at least I could drive up to Comp USA. But I may not even need to the system is built right.

I have MS Office XP Pro...I hope it will work on Vista and Windows 7.

Thanks!

[Mitch Drumm]

Jeff:


Vista "works", but it is more sluggish than XP in my experience and I have more minor issues with it than I did with XP. I would stay with XP on a new machine if I had a choice. If not, then OK, you got Vista. Windows 7 is supposed to be an improvement.

I have nothing against Macs and at one time I was a Macskinner, but that was a long time ago. The only issue I have is that Mac devotees have become a cult and carry on like teenagers would have 50 years ago discussing Ford vs Chevy. Macs and PCs are just tools and both do what they are intended to do, no more, no less. Macs are more expensive and that will likely never change.

If I may quote my old pal, Mister T, "I pity the fool who is at the mercy of the sales guy at Comp USA".

If you don't know anything about building a PC, you are begging for it in any face to face discussion with them. It might work out and it might not, but by your own admission you are an unsophisticated buyer.

If you buy from Dell, you do it online and don't discuss anything with anybody. You just check boxes on a form and cough up your credit card number. We can help you with that.

You are right in wanting a custom system and that is what Dell does, within their limits. Their limits are intended to reduce the likelihood of you needing tech support, but you can be unlucky--from Dell or Comp USA. If I KNEW I was going to be unlucky, I would rather be unlucky with Dell.


Best bet is someone within 20 miles of your home, but it's up to you to identify that outfit and live with their support after the purchase. I don't envy you doing that. That's why I chose Dell until I had enough savvy to build my own.

Yeah, there are smaller online outfits that can custom build a machine for you. Here is one I considered 6 or 8 years ago, in Salina Kansas:

http://www.envisioncs.net/

They had a good rep at the time, but for all I know they have changed hands 5 times since then. You can at least play with their configurator compared to Dell or anyone else.

I checked out an entry level Nehalem configuration at this builder and it came to 1326, with Vista, no monitor. I think Dell is around 1100 for a similar config.

[Jack Stoner]

I do a lot of support on the Dell users forum and personally I would not buy a Dell. There are too many proprietary hardware issues (e.g. the motherboard is a proprietary model and even down to a non ATX standard size and Dell proprietary and undocumented front panel connection for the power switch and mic and headphone jacks) and based on users posts very poor customer and tech support (it's based in India). The sales staff will sell people machines that do not do what they want.

Dell's are finicky about memory. Some brands work in one machine and will not work in another, and there's no pattern. The only 3rd party memory we recommend is Crucial as it is guaranteed to work in Dell's.

The Dell audio systems, whether Integrated (on the motherboard) or add on SoundBlaster Xfi do not have the System Mixer or What You Hear option so you can't record streaming audio. The Xfi models that Dell uses have a history of several problems including "screeching" and pops and clicks.

If you buy a Dell from somewhere other than directly from Dell, the support for that Dell is where you bought it, not Dell. e.g. if you buy a Dell at Best Buy then Best Buy is responsible for the warranty support.

However, probably most that buy a Dell are satisfied with their purchase, even tho there are known issues. What we see on the Dell users forum are only the ones with problems that post.

As far as a recommendation for a new PC, "buy as much as your pocketbook can stand" or "buy overkill", do not buy the entry level or cheapie models. I built a PC for recording last year and it has an intel Q6600 quad processor with max memory for 32 bit Operating Systems (mine has 3.2GB out of 4GB available as 32 bit OS' have a "less than 4GB" limitation because of addressing). If you go with a 64 bit OS you are somewhat limited on recording hardware interfaces since some are not 64 bit compatible. I had an Alesis io26 8 channel firewire recording interface (nice unit that is listed in the forum for sale section) but I wanted to go to Vista 64 bit and the Alesis is only 32 bit compatible (no Vista 64 bit drivers). In Vista 64 bit, I have 8GB of RAM available and use Sonar 8 Producer, which has been optimized for 64 bit OS operations (it does work well in 32 bit too) and a Focusrite Saffire Pro 40 8 analog channel firewire recording interface unit which is 64 bit compatible.

[Mitch Drumm]

Jeff:

Don't know if you are aware of Resellerratings.com, but it is an online site where buyers of tech stuff (mostly computers and parts) can post their experiences with various online vendors.

I just checked out Envision in Salina Kansas, which I mentioned in previous post.

Envision has 554 lifetime reviews dating back to 1999 with a lifetime rating of 9.91 on a 0 to 10.00 scale. For the last 6 months, their rating is 10.00. So I guess they are still very highly thought of. The average for all stores is 7.91.


Look here:

http://tinyurl.com/3z7ddr

You can read comments by individual purchasers at the above link.

Category ratings:

8.13 Pricing of Products and Services
9.69 Likelihood of Future Purchases
9.69 Shipping and Packaging
10.00 Customer Service
9.17 Return or Replacement

I doubt if you can do better, but of course I can't personally vouch for anyone.

[Jeff Strouse]

I went to Best Buy, and this seemed like a good all around deal...it already has some higher end components. The only upgrade I forsee myself making is probably the sound card. It is HDTV ready with tuner card, which is one thing I'd like to have, to use my computer is a TIVO type of thing. It's got a quad core for video editing.

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... 8044490119

GATEWAY: $779
Intel® Core™2 Quad processor Q8200
1333MHz frontside bus, 4MB L2 cache and 2.33GHz
Intel® Smart Memory Access
Intel® Advanced Digital Media Boost
8GB DDR2 memory
Multiformat DVD±RW/CD-RW drive w/dble-layer support
640GB Serial ATA II hard drive (7200 rpm)
NVIDIA GeForce GT120 graphics 1GB
Built-in HD TV tuner
Amplified USB stereo speakers high-definition audio (8-speaker support).
Multimedia keyboard and USB optical 2-button wheel mouse included.
Windows Vista Home Prem Edt 64-bit operating system
With Service Pack 1 (SP1) preinstalled for a stable platform.



Here's an HP model, but with the suggested upgrades, it's getting pricey:

http://www.shopping.hp.com/webapp/shopp ... 00t_series

HP: $799
Vista Home Premium with Service Pack 1 (64-bit)
• Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Quad processor Q9400 [2.66GHz]
• 4GB DDR2-800MHz dual channel SDRAM [4x1024]
• 500GB 7200 rpm SATA 3Gb/s hard drive
• 256MB NVIDIA GeForce 9300 [DVI, HDMI, VGA adapter]
• LightScribe 16X max. DVD+/-R/RW SuperMulti drive
• LAN port on system board (10/100/1000Base-T), no wireless LAN
• 15-in-1 memory card reader, 2 USB, 1394, audio
• No TV Tuner w/remote control
• Integrated 7.1 channel sound with front audio ports
• No speakers
• HP keyboard and HP optical mouse
• Microsoft(R) Works 9.0
• Norton Internet Security(TM) 2009 - 15 month


And finally Dell.

http://www.dell.com/content/products/pr ... mt_cto_2~~

DELL: $899
Intel® Core™i7-920 Processor(8MB L2 Cache, 2.66GHz)
Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1, 64-Bit
No Monitor
Single Drive: 16X CD/DVD burner (DVD+/-RW) w/double layer write capability
4GB1 Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1066MHz - 4 DIMMs
640GB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
ATI Radeon HD 3450 256MB
Integrated 7.1 Channel Audio
2Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty,2 InHome Service


I'm not sure of the difference between having the ATI Radeon HD 3450 256MB vs the NVIDIA GeForce GT120 graphics. There's also the AMD Anthlon processor vs the Intel Core i-7. It seems like the AMD is more for gamers.

The Dell has a bit faster processor (2.66) than the Gateway (2.33)...I wonder if that would be noticeable with video editing?

The Gateway has a nice layout of controls and jacks, plus, I got to see it in the store.

The guy at Best Buy told me I'd still get a better and less expensive product if I built it myself...he said I could buy all that parts of Newegg. But being that I'm a novice, I'd probably be better off getting a pre-built system.

The only store I know that will do a custom system from parts, is CompUsa. But I assume the Gateway or Dell would be more reliable, perhaps? I'd like this system to at least last me 5 yrs +.

Any suggestions? I appreciate anyone taking the time to look at the links.



Thanks!

[Mitch Drumm]

Jeff:

The HP q9400 video is apparently a discrete card, rather than on the motherboard. The q9400 processor is faster than the q8200 in the Gateway. Look at my links farther down. The Gateway has more ram. Try to configure the HP as close as possible to the Gateway.

The Gateway has “up to” 1 gig video. The video would appear to be built into the motherboard, not a discrete card, so some of the 8 gigs system ram is going to be used by the video card. Price 780 plus tax at Best Buy. Out the door probably 840, depending on Fla tax rate.

The Dell Core i-7 920 has 256 mb video on a discrete card, not on the motherboard. Price 899, probably no tax. You can upgrade to 6 gigs ram for 100, total 999. Is shipping included?

Retail processor prices at Newegg:

8200: 165
9400: 230
9550: 275
i-7 920: 280

Re processor comparisons, look at the link below for a comparison of many quads, including the 8200, 9400, 9550, and the i-7 920. The various charts, tables, and pages at the link below discuss overall performance, gaming performance, image processing, media encoding/editing, and “bang for the buck” when all other variables like RAM, video card, etc are held as constant as possible.

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/16570

I won’t post the graphs here, but the “average performance” graph shows the i-7 is about 18% faster than the 9550, 25% faster than the 9400, and 42% faster than the 8200.

In the media encoding test, the q8200 took 119 seconds, the q9400 took 105 seconds, the q9550 took 98 seconds, and the i-920 took 74 seconds.

The Dell i-7 is about $59 more than the Gateway and you have to decide if you want to pay $59 for that level of increased performance.

Re vendor: you are just going to have to swallow hard and hope. Given that you apparently are limiting yourself to Best Buy, Comp USA, and Dell, I would choose Dell first and Comp USA last, but to each his own.

Make sure all are configured to do what you particularly want to do with the machine. I have no idea how sensitive you are to, say, a $200 price difference. Personally, I would be much more concerned with the proper components and the vendor, rather than the $200.

Regardless of vendor, I would get an i-7. The price differential is minimal and it has the new socket. The other traditional quads use a 775 pin socket which Intel is phasing out. I don't know if you might upgrade the processor after 3 years or so, but if you don't get an i-7 motherboard now, you will be limited to the older quad processors in the future--or buy a new motherboard as well at that time.

I assume you could not price a Nehalem machine at Best Buy? Not surprising I guess as Dell has quicker access to Intel's new lines than the typical retailer.

I would seriously consider a second drive of some kind for backup purposes if you don’t already have that covered.

[Jeff Strouse]

I see what you mean about the different processors & speeds.

Overall I like that Gateway, but would like to upgrade the processor and the sound card. I found it on the Gateway website, but it doesn't look like you can customize with them?

The Dell is good, but I'd have to upgrade memory, sound card, and possibly a TV Tuner if it doesn't have one.

I won't be gaming, so as long as the processor will accommodate those functions with decent speed, would I really ever need to upgrade the processor for those things (unless it goes bad or something)? It would be nice if the Gateway processor were faster, but would I notice for what I'm doing?

Each system looks like it could do the job, but each one is lacking somewhere...

I'm open to other options...but I'm confused as it is!

I'd just like to get a great system for multi-track recording, video editing, and TV recording, for about a grand....(less the monitor), to last a good 5 yrs...

Am I dreaming?

[Mitch Drumm]

Jeff:

At one time, Gateway was a custom builder that competed against Dell and got their butt kicked. Now, they don't really customize machines--they have a set number of models and you cannot buy direct any more--you gotta find a local retailer or buy online. You can buy Gateways at Newegg.

I looked at their website. They have i-7 machines, but they begin at 1250 and have only 3 gigs of ram.

They also have a q 9400 with 6 gigs ram for 1200 bucks. It is the only step between the q 8200 you saw at Best Buy and the i-7 for 1250. So you don't have a lot of variety or customizability with them.

Gateway q9400
http://www.gateway.com/systems/product/529668208.php

No, most people don't replace processors unless they break, which is very rare. The more potent the machine you buy today, the less it is likely to bog down under a load 3 years from now.

I am not well versed on the horsepower requirements needed for multi-track and TV recording. I don't know how much you benefit from more horses. Maybe money would be better spent on RAM or particular brands of TV tuners or recording software. That's what you have to find out.

If a job that took 4 hours on one machine only took 2 hours on another, would you be indifferent? You might be indifferent if you did the job monthly, but probably would care if you did it daily or weekly.

You just have to set your priorities and do research on what hardware/software you need considering the budget. I hate to see anyone buy under time pressure. It may be that certain video/TV tuner/recording gear are pathetic and you have to avoid them.

PCs are so much more powerful than they were even 5 years ago that 90% of users will never stress a mid-level machine like the q8200 Gateway at Best Buy---but you could be an exception due to your projected use. So read the Web or otherwise research in that direction. Read the forums at ARS Technica that I linked earlier in this thread.

It may be that dropping the processor back to say a q6600 and spending the saved money on more memory and high class TV cards and recording stuff would be a better way to allocate $1000.

Look at Dell's lower priced lines with traditional quad processors and see what you can get for 1000.

If you demand total customizability, you are in the hands of Comp USA.

[Wiz Feinberg]

Jeff;
Have you thought about getting a Systemax PC from Tiger Direct? They are customizable and reasonably priced.

Systemax AMD Desktop PC
AMD Athlon 64 X2 4400+,
genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium 64 Bit, DVD included,
(2) 1TB Hard Drives,
6GB DDR2 RAM,
DVD±RW Dual Layer,
ATI Radeon HD 3200 onboard video chipset: DVI-D, VGA (15-Pin D-Sub), HDMI,
Mouse and keyboard included
$699.99

[Jeff Strouse]

Well, after looking at bunch of different systems, each with different options, I was starting to get a headache. All systems in my budgeted price range have different strengths and weaknesses. So I narrowed it down to this one:

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp ... 8017465909

Gateway FX6800-01e: $1099
Intel® Core™ i7 2.66 GHz
System Bus: 1066MHz Cache Memory: 8MB on die level 2
3GB DDR3 RAM Expandable To 16GB
750 GB SATA II (7200 rpm)
ATI RADEON HD 4850 Graphics 512MB or 1GB memory
8-channel (7.1) high-definition audio card
Built-in 10/100/1000 Ethernet LAN (RJ-45 connector)
Windows Vista Home Premium 64-bit with SP1

I know Gateway's not the same company it once was, but this unit seems a good bang for the buck. Plus, it's ready to go. To customize at the Dell website would take up to 2 months.

I will need to add:
-TV Tuner
-A Monitor
-A little more RAM
-Possibly upgrade to the Sound Blaster Audio Card

Do you think the stock HD audio card will suffice for good basic home multi-track recording and digitizing LPs? The guy at Best Buy said it may be okay since this system is built for gamers, who require better audio than typical stock systems in this price range.

I hope my MS Office Pro 2002 for XP Pro will work on it, since it's Vista. I'd hate to have to buy it new when this software works fine for me.

Thanks for all the help and advice so far! Everyone please keep their fingers crossed that I get one of the 'good ones' right out of the box...mass produced electronic systems can have some duds out of the box.

[Richard Sinkler]

I thought the best choice was to buy a Dell. Spent over $2000 for my dimension 9100 with extra options. Biggest piece of crap I have ever owned. I would never buy another one. I used to build computers in the old days (when it was still affordable to buy the parts and build one yourself). Now prices have come down so much that it costs more to build your own than to buy one from a store.

[Earnest Bovine]

Do you think the stock HD audio card will suffice

Most audio converters are external (USB, some firewire) rather than inside the computer. My next one will be external if for no other reason than the convenience of connecting audio cables, mic cables, MIDI cables, etc. So you can postpone this decision and choose from dozens of options.

[Mitch Drumm]

Jeff:

I think you did pretty well. The machine is priced at 1250 at Gateway’s own site, so you are getting it at 150 off list.

http://tinyurl.com/cqvdnl

The above link is to Gateway’s newest downloads for your model number. There are 5 items listed: audio driver, video driver, network driver, newest bios, and Intel chipset driver. All are dated 12/1/08 except for the bios, which is 2/18/09.

Some folks would tell you to download them and install them; others would say don’t do that unless you have issues. In your situation and considering the dates, I would kind of lean toward the latter position. But you should at least be aware of the download page. Bios updates are a special case and not to be taken lightly.

I looked at Crucial memory for your model number:

http://tinyurl.com/d2jjbu

Your machine should have 6 memory slots and should have three 1 gig modules installed in a triple channel configuration, with 3 empty slots. You can buy 3 more 1 gig modules (giving you 6 total) or three 2 gig modules (giving you 9 total). Apparently your machine doesn’t support 4 gig sticks, but those aren’t easily found anyway.

Gateway says your memory runs at 1066 Mhz, so there is no point in buying new memory at any other speed—the faster memory would just default to the slower 1066.

All compatible Crucial memory: http://tinyurl.com/d2jjbu

Compatible Crucial 3 gig kit, 1066 Mhz, for $60, direct from Crucial: http://tinyurl.com/cmjr86

Compatible Crucial 6 gig kit, 1066 Mhz, for $102, direct from Crucial: http://tinyurl.com/dykqmc

Crucial is a highly reliable brand. It’s a 5 or 10 minute job to put in more memory. Compare those prices to whatever Best Buy might charge you to put it in and decide if you want to do it yourself.

You shouldn’t have any problems with your version of Office.

The Gateway should really be fast—in the 98 percentile or higher of what the average PC user has.

Good luck—you have an 80 or 90 percent chance of not having any significant issues.

[Richard Sinkler]

I used to administer a small office network (that connected to other networks outside the office). In the office, and our sales staff and service staff that connected to the network from home, there were several brands in use. The server was built by a local company I knew (NEVER had a problem in over 3 years of service - also very expensive). Other brands that were used were Gateway (the ones I had the least problems with), Dell ( the ones I had the most problems with), HP (average amount of problems), Sony (probably rated just below the Gateway) and a couple of local shop type units that were OK.

I thought Gateway was out of business because you don't see the flood of commercials you used to see on TV. Glad to see they're still alive and Kickin'.

[Kenny Yates]

I realize that I am prejudiced, however, if your budget will stand it get the new iMac with 8 gigs of ram and bootcamp and load windows 7 when it comes out, that way you have the best of both worlds.

Ken