Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 3 Mar 2002 7:56 am

I've heard it said that Jerry Garcia is the greatest steel player of all time.

I've head that George Harrison was the greatest sitar player of all time.

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 3 Mar 2002 11:14 am

Hi Mike!

hee-hee! No, but he was the most famous, and sold more songs with it than anyone else. Scoreboard counts.

I bet Ravi Shankar never dissed Harrison for playing Pop music on the sitar. He was thrilled to death with the exposure the genre received from being associated with such a high profile star, and used that exposure to further the world's understanding of the instrument. Somehow I doubt a cadre of Indian Music curmudgeons are spending all their waking hours bashing Harrison on the Sitar Forum. Most of them considered him a hero.

I'll leave you with a quote from a local songwriter who probably would as soon remain anonymous. "I'm trying to ship product here. If you're looking for art, I suggest checking out the museum."

John

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Fulawka D-10 9&5
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

[This message was edited by JB Arnold on 03 March 2002 at 11:16 AM.]

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 4 Mar 2002 4:49 am

Kim,

mmm...sweet sweet Slipknot! I was just listening to them on the way to work this morning.
I've gotta admit, this is one of the last places I'd expect to see them mentioned!

...anyway, back to Jerry Garcia...

clive swindell · Post by **clive swindell** » 5 Mar 2002 5:23 am

Mmm - most interesting. My mom always said that if you didn't ask then you wouldn't find out. I got the CD with the track on yesterday - I will listen to it with renewed interest.

Derek Duplessie · Post by **Derek Duplessie** » 8 Mar 2002 4:50 pm

I'm not even going to write in....Doh!!!
-Derek

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 8 Mar 2002 10:42 pm

Listen to Paul Franklin's cut on "Teach Your Children" . rhe best ever. Jody.

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 15 Mar 2002 9:20 pm

Even if I was one of the first to say close this now, I got to thinking (OH OH, not again) about it and you do have to admit that it is a classic song with a little classic steel, played well or not. That part is a personal opinion, I alway like the song, used to play it in many bands over the years without the steel, the lead player took care of it (sorta). The Garcia debate I don't want to get into, but the song IS a classic and Garcia WAS a professional musician.

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 16 Mar 2002 3:22 am

Where do Crosby,Stills,Nash,& Young practice law?I might need them to help with my will.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 16 Mar 2002 5:04 am

Andy, I think they were bought out by Emerson, Lake and Palmer.

Arty Passes · Post by **Arty Passes** » 16 Mar 2002 6:53 am

OK, I have to add mine before this is permanently locked (although it seems to deserve to be revisited from time to time)
That song was my epiphane(?)of figuring out how to play the darn thing back in '74. I had been struggling through "On Top Of Old Smokey" in the Sho-Bud book, and that song made me go "Oh, I know how he did that. THAT's how you make it sound cool"
For more JG steelwork check out Workingman's Dead, especially "Dire Wolf"

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 16 Mar 2002 6:55 am

I still say I thought Garcia
was trying to sound like Buck Trent
on that record.
For those of you who don't know,
Buck Trent played electric 5-string banjo for Porter Wagoner and got a lot of steel sounding licks with four scruggs tuners and a couple of palm peddles.
I thought he was very funky
and used to look forward to Porter's
new records to hear what Buck would play. The intro to Carrol County Accident was classic Buck Trent all the way.
Jerry Garcia seemed (to my ears anyway)
to be playing Buck Trent licks.

Joey Ace · Post by **Joey Ace** » 16 Mar 2002 7:15 am

"Just when I think I'm out of it they draw me back in.." from The Godfather 3

I think Buck was trying to play simple Steel licks, so was Jerry. I do hear the similarity.

I agree totally with Steve's K's post, 5 above.

This week a new guitar player sat in with my band. It was his first time playing with a Steel. He asked, "Can you do Teach Your Children?". We did. All enjoyed it.

I asked him if he knew who the steel player was. He did.

Good example of how this song, and Jerry, has given Steel favorable recoginition, even 32 years after it's release.
[This message was edited by Joey Ace on 16 March 2002 at 10:41 AM.]

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 17 Mar 2002 9:31 am

Thanks Joey, I needed that!!!

Mike Perlowin RIP · Post by **Mike Perlowin RIP** » 17 Mar 2002 9:51 am

There are 2 things that make a great musician. Knowledge, and touch. Garcia, bewing a fine musician, had the ability to coax a sweet sound out of any stringed instrument he stroked, including the steel.

Therefore his work, simple as it was, sounds good. However, it is reasonable to assume that his work with CSNY pretty much covered the limits of his knowledge.

He probably played every lick he knew. The fact is though that he played them well.

Had he pursued the steel with the same intensity that many of us here do, he undoubtedly would have become a fine player.

The problem (as I see it) is not what he did, but that because he was able to play well within the limits of his knowledge, he is looked upon by those who don't know any better, as better than he actually was, and for many people his playing has become the standard of what a steel sounds like, and what it can do.

JB Arnold · Post by **JB Arnold** » 17 Mar 2002 10:30 am

Y'all should listen to the very first New Riders album, "New Riders of the Purple Sage" to get an idea of where Garcia was heading had he continued to play. He sounded like he'd been hanging with Cage, which he had, on the Train tour of Canada. Once the Riders took off, he went back to his day job with the Dead and hired Cage as his replacement.

Buddy tells an interesting story about Garcia-Not too long after Buddy joined NRPS, the band REALLY took off. Cage was getting a lot of press and attention, and everyone was enthralled with this "new" instrument the band had. And it was true, Cage was the featured soloist in that band, which Cage says did cause some friction intially. Of course the other problem was that most folks thought Garcia was still in the band, and thought Cage was him. reviewers were notoriously bad, and Garcia kept getting rave reviews for his playing when he wasn't even there. The running joke was that Cage was doing more for Garcia's reputation than Garcia. (This tells you that not all NRPS fans were Deadheads first. They would never have mistaken the two).

One night, Buddy decided he was going to pay attention to the critics, and make sure they knew who he was. He partied with this one guy, pretty well known, who aready liked the Dead, both before and after the show, which he raved about backstage. 2 days later his review appeared, and he absolutely TRASHED Cage. Called him all kinds of hideous things. 3 pages of just absolute character assasination, and how he had ruined the band and how dare he try to replace Garcia, what a conceit, etc.. This was before Gypsy Cowboy came out-the guy said their careers were over.

Buddy got enraged, which was not an unusual reaction for him at the time. He took the thing to Garcia who had to calm him down, tell him it was just one butthead, etc. Buddy got over it, and went on about his business, collecting plenty of good reviews and accolades.

Garcia went out the next day and bought a very expensive and fancy frame-and had the bad review prominently mounted in the Dead office waiting area where every visitor who ever came in was bound to read it. Gold plated, couldn't miss it. It stayed there as long as the office did.

Whenever Buddy was there Garcia always made a point of telling him his first real review was still hanging in the office.

Garcia's sense of humor was pretty dry. Cage considered it a badge of honor. Garcia thought it was pretty funny. As Buddy says:"God...I loved Jerry."

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Fulawka D-10 9&5
"All in all, looking back, I'd have to say the best advice anyone ever gave me was 'Hands Up, Don't Move!"
www.johnbarnold.com/pedalsteel
www.buddycage.net

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 17 Mar 2002 10:44 am

Jerry Garcia brought many of us to the steel guitar. His tracks inspired countless players of my generation.

Listening to the Grateful Dead, I've come to realize that they were a true jazz band. The spirit of joyful improvisation permeated everything they did. But CSN&Y had a different approach. Much of their music was note-for-note perfect, like a classical composition, especially in the vocal arrangements. Jerry understood that approach as well, and crafted a part that worked very well.

Few people here believe that Jerry was a great steel player, but I feel sorry for those who can't recognize that he was a great musician. One of the marks of a great musician is the ability to come up with good musical ideas on any instrument. Jerry had that ability.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)[This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 17 March 2002 at 10:47 AM.]

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 17 Mar 2002 12:17 pm

Interesting story, JB! Actually, when I listened to NRPS for the first time, which happened to be "Powerglide", remember I didn´t know anything back then and I thought, "Man, that Garcia guy sure could play!" It wasn´t until a while later that I got the first album and at the same time learned about Cage and noticed the difference. I always felt so silly for that... Anyway, for me Jerry´s playing fit in perfectly well in that context. That first album has an atmosphere all it´s own. It´s interesting to compare, how Buddy would treat some of those tunes in an entirely different manner, maybe I like his approach even better... But Jerry sure did some sweet playing in his own way. Everytime I listen to it, it stirs up emotions, brings back memories of the place where I used to live then (beautiful mountains of Northern Italy). Jerry did some stuff that I could figure out quite easily when I started on steel, and for that reason he´ll always be important for me.

Regards, Joe H. [This message was edited by Joe Henry on 17 March 2002 at 12:21 PM.]

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 17 Mar 2002 1:28 pm

bOb is right about Jerry, steel, the late 60's and 70's. But, another who did maybe a lot more was Michael Nezmith and the First National Band, whom we all know, more or less, was built around Red Rhodes fantastic playing. I believe Red and Nez did a LOT for playing steel outside of the traditional venue of country. Red is the one that got me wanting to play steel in the worst way, but the things were so darn expensive and hard to justify when you have mortgage payments, kids, cars, etc. I literaly wore out 8 track tapes in my van, playing them over and over. As I said before, "Teach" is a classic song and Garcia's playing is a classic part of it.
PS, I wish we had a spell checker on this Forum. Steve

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 18 Mar 2002 2:05 pm

And now, a little levity: http://www.theonion.com/onion3115/garciadead.html

Watch out for colorful language

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 18 Mar 2002 3:49 pm

Jerry died?

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 18 March 2002 at 03:50 PM.]

David Rupert · Post by **David Rupert** » 20 Mar 2002 11:13 pm

Jerry died?

Uhhmm...Not funny, Jim.

I miss Jerry!

The day he died, was a very sad day, for me...& many others.

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David "DJ" Rupert

1995 Mullen D-10
Nashville 400 Amp
Goodrich Volume Pedal (L120).
Boss: Dual Overdrive (SD-2), Digital Delay (DD-5), Super Phaser (PH-2).

"Music. Without it, life itself...would be impossible."

Peace.

www.johnbarnold.com/rupert/index.htm

[This message was edited by David Rupert on 21 March 2002 at 12:04 AM.]

clive swindell · Post by **clive swindell** » 26 Mar 2002 7:13 am

I have just got back from the TSGA in Dallas and I am sure I saw a poster advertising a new tour by Crosby Stills Nash and Young. Is this true? I thought that they had all fallen out years ago?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 26 Mar 2002 8:08 am

They get back together every few years and do a tour like this. But then they go their separate ways again for awhile.

Sorry to have missed you in Dallas, Clive!
Do you still need a new copy of the "Someday Soon" rhythm track? I had planned to bring you one in Dallas. Let me know.

Jimbeaux

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The "Master of Acceptable Tone"
www.jimcohen.com

[This message was edited by Jim Cohen on 26 March 2002 at 08:08 AM.]

Glenn Suchan · Post by **Glenn Suchan** » 26 Mar 2002 8:44 am

To David Rupert: David I hope you don't think my link to the lampoon in the online magazine, "The Onion", was meant to belittle JG's legacy. It wasn't. I just intended to post something to lighten up the mood that generally acompanies discussion about Jerry.

Yes, CSN&Y are touring again. I heard rumors of ticket prices in Austin in the $150 range. Is it the work of Clear Channel Communications?

David Crosby is involved with another music project called CPR (Crosby, Pevar, Raymond). See. my post about CPR http://steelguitarforum.com/Forum10/HTML/002069.html

Keep on pickin'!
Glenn