Universal Copedent

[Lee Rider]

I'm working on an old Erickson pedal steel, 12 strings, 7+4 that has quite a few issues. The knee levers do not hinge but are connected directly to the cross shaft. The bell cranks are different too, made so they can rotate to allow the levers to fold down and that makes things interesting. The changer is 2 up/down (except the 5th string which has an extra raise hole adapter).

The other issue is that there are no reversers, they just invert the bell cranks to pull the opposite direction. This along with the issues I explained above, is proving to be a real head scratch-er.

The way this thing was built it really limits the number of changes that one can apply to the guitar.

My question is: What are the essential B6 changes that I can utilize since what I can install is limited?

Thanks in advance

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[Jerry Overstreet]

Heck of a time settin up a uni tuning with only a 2 raise changer unless you can expand on the method used for the 5th string.

I'd say you need the common 5,6 & 7 pedals along with lowering the 5th string is minimum for a Uni tuning but it's been a long time since my experience with them.

Here is a standard 7+4 Newman E9/B6 Uni setup. My brain is too foggy to try and explain where you need triple raises but I know they are there. Best of luck.

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[Lane Gray]

When I was loading up an MSA universal, the late James Morehead gave me the Copedent-saving tip I needed. Replace the regular rods with threaded ends with Professional/Pro-1 rods and barrels. As long as you have 2.5 inches/6.3mm between bellcranks, Bob's yer uncle.

[Lee Rider]

Thanks Jerry and Lane. I've got a buddy that can make parts but I was trying to work with what I have.

[Bobby D. Jones]

For the Jeff Newman E9th/B6th tuning.
Strings 4-5-9 need 3 hole raise pullers.

[Dennis Detweiler]

You'll only need two triple raise. I have a 1975 and 76 MSA U-12's. You just release the Eb lever for the 4/8 floor split, when using the 6th floor pedal on the Newman setup. On the 5th and 9th strings, I did what Lane posted. I threaded both ends of the rods and tune my A pedal from the underside. You'd have to drill out those two cross shaft pullers to 1/4 inch and install MSA brass barrel bushings to allow the rod to slip freely through the barrels. I'll try and post photos of how I did it. Basically each of the two rods pulls twice and tunes one pull from the end plate and one pull from the underside. You have to tune the end plate nylon nut first, then the other end of the rod underneath. It's easy to find the underside tuner if you position them near the left end of the endplate.

[Dennis Detweiler]

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The hitch pin with the roll pin through it is locked onto the pull rod and keeps the pull rod from turning. The pull rod floats freely through the brass pin to allow tuning the rod from underneath with the large nylon tuners. The pull rod is threaded on both ends. It works perfectly. This is the 9th string B to D and tuned from the end plate nut. The upper picture is the same rod 9th string B to C# (A pedal).

[Lee Rider]

Thanks for the info, pictures and advice. I was thinking of the gadget that Tom Bradshaw makes; he did one on an old MSA 12 string extended E9 to get the B6 changes. The bell cranks are a limiting factor on this beast as they fold down with the knee levers that are not hinged, so not a lot of options there.

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[Derrick Phillips]

Hey Lane, could you explain the benefits of your suggestion? I don't quite understand - I've got a Mullen U12 and would like to understand if I can do what you're suggesting. I'm very interested.

To the Original Poster - you can get away with out Pedal 6 - because when you release the E lowers and pull LKL to lower your B to a D you'll get the same notes on string 4 and 9 as Pedal 6 does to Strings 4 and 8.

Also - Buddy Emmons left Pedal 4 out of his Basic C6 Course.

If you haven't already - I highly suggest looking at Larry Bell's website - his Copedant on his Emmons P/P U12 and his explanation of it is very helpful to understand the Tuning and Copedant selections/Options.
http://www.larrybell.org/id23.htm - overall tuning explanation
http://www.larrybell.org/id15.htm - his copedant for 'The Beast' the Emmons U12.

I'm still trying to find the perfect Copedant for me - I recently started working through Buddy's C6 Basic course - and I'm finding that Larry's The Beast Copedant gets me what I need to play most C6 tunes, but in B6.

[Dennis Detweiler]

Yes, Tom Bradshaw's gizmo is more simple than mine provided you have an extra unused raise opening next to the 5th and 9th raises (4 or 6 and 8 or 10). I have 6 knee levers and none available on mine. Likely open and available at string 8 and 10? 4 and 6 raises are probably already full on a 2/2 changer Universal?
I see from the diagram that an open lower will work also. Much simpler than the double threaded rod system that I used.

[Jerry Overstreet]

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Idea actually comes from a couple good 'ol boys from Kentucky.

You can enlarge the photo a bit by right clicking on it, select open image in a new tab which will appear in the header...click on that tab, view the photo then click on the + to enlarge the view somewhat.
.... or windows button with the + button to open the magnifier.

[Bobby D. Jones]

Mr. Ryder, I have looked at this for a few days. Looks like some projects I have been into. Danged if I do, Danged if I don't.

The first thing that catches my eye. This guitar has a lot wider bell cranks than the MSA style bell cranks. How well the double pulls on 1 rod, Would function on the wide bell cranks, Could be a problem. Would the bell cranks have to be cut down to work proper????
Another thing. This guitars pull rods are above the cross shafts, Like a Sho-Bud Perm. Not with pulls below the cross shafts like a MSA Classic. Would you be able to reach the adjustments up in the pull rods, And cross shafts???

Or would it be better to add a 3rd pull hole to the changer pull bars 4-9, Like the 5 string pull bar has been reworked.
If the changer has to be pulled, Just add 3 pull holes to 4-9 bars. Or while the changer is out, Since there is space for the 3rd pull hole on the pull bars. Just make it a full 3 pull 2 lower changer out of it???
Decisions, Decisions.
Good Luck on this project.

[Lee Rider]

Bobby, Jerry and Dennis: All great suggestions and I really appreciate your expertise. I am trying not to delve to deeply into this guitar. I am just trying to make it playable. It is a different beast than any other I have seen in my limited experience. The main issue I have is the levers not being hinged and no reversers. Something to challenge the old brain I guess:

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[K Maul]

I used the Bradshaw devices on an old S12 MSA about 30 years ago and they worked great. I think you actually can make them out of a hard wood if you don’t have metal working tools.

[Lane Gray]

Derrick, on the old Professionals, aka rack and barrel, the changer had one raise and one lower hole, but the same rod could operate on multiple pedals and knees.

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Instead of putting the tuning nut at the changer end of the rod, it's out at the bellcranks or racks, so the tuning wrench spins the rod

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One half of the barrel is tightly affixed to the rod, and the other half gets spun when you turn the rod with the pedal/lever applied.

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So if you use these rods and barrels in a guitar with a 2/2, you actually can have far more than 2 raises if you want them.

[Derrick Phillips]

ok, thx Lane. Makes sense.