Message from b0b - Please read

[Wally Pfeifer]

OH OH Now the jokesters are coming out. Is it time to "put
a lid on" the subject. Hasn't everything been said at least twice or more?

[Charlie McDonald]

I previously thought Sturgeon's law was 'ninethy percent of everything is carp

Do I detect a pun there, Charlie?

Are you fishing for one?

Yeah, when the fish jokes come out, it's usually time, but don't mean that. I really enjoyed Christopher's post.

[Bob Hoffnar]

.........

If you don't have something helpful to add, just don't post. Okay?

[Dave Mudgett]

For what it’s worth - I think we should leave things as they are, and encourage the newcomers to ask the same questions over and over again...

That's a very good point, Christopher. Asking questions creates personal relationships. Reading canned answers to common questions does not. Asking questions brings you into the community.

Up to a point, I agree. In fact, I haven't seen one reply suggesting new members/players shouldn't ask questions, even repeated ones. Of course, we want to have discussions. This forum is not a FAQ or wiki, although I think a FAQ or some other type of curated thread with answers to common questions and misconceptions, as suggested by Bob Hoffnar, would be useful if it can be done in a way that doesn't burden the curators or try to impose a specific orthodoxy on the ideas presented. Or there may be other approaches to achieve the same end.

With that said, I think there is a concept of doing at least a little bit of "due diligence" before asking questions, especially when they are (IMO) obvious questions that anybody new to an instrument would need to know. Such as, "What steel should I buy / start out on?", "What kind of amp should I use?", "What kind of strings/picks/bars/etc.?", "Where are learning resources?", and on and on. Doing this type of extremely basic prep makes it possible to ask an intelligent question, to which one might expect to get a serious and thoughtful answer.

I think it's possible to make it easier for new people to get this info. Bob H's suggestion is one possibility, and there are others. I think the better place to consider ideas in this realm is on the Feedback thread Bob started, and I'll add my ideas for that there - viewtopic.php?t=329337

I also think everyone on this thread agrees that we should all be, at the very least, civil with each other. What constitutes "civil" may vary among the populace, but I'd even argue that we should be "friendly" with each other. This is a forum of (mostly) steel guitar players. We are a relative rarity in this world. We should be nice to each other and welcoming to new people who want to join in. We undoubtedly may not agree on some things, but we have a lot in common. Being nice to other steel players is not that hard. That's why I stated that b0b's initial quip about a "no-jackass" rule is actually reasonable. I trust b0b and the other moderators to appropriately identify problems and enforce it, which I think they already do, for the most part.

I have to agree on interspersing jokes on an otherwise serious thread. Sorry guys, but it's maddening at times, especially when it becomes the norm that discussions get interrupted like this.

[Fred Treece]

A “New Player FAQ” may slow the rate of topic repetition, which may or may not effect the forum dynamic. Referring a new player to the “NPF” wouldn’t necessarily stifle relationship building. In fact, I might have appreciated such a referral a year ago and thanked the member very kindly.

[Don R Brown]

I don't know how much work it is to modify the forum layout, so it's easy for me to suggest work which b0b has to do. That said, under "Steel Guitar Topics" we have the sections Steel On The Web, Steel Players, etc. Would it be possible to create a new section "For Those Getting Started" or "Newbie's Nook" or such?

We could have a couple stickies for FAQ, and then the various threads as is done on all the other sections. Other members could check in and volunteer to answer questions if they are inclined to be helpful, and knowing it may well be something already addressed. And it would reduce the number of times introductory stuff gets posted in other sections, thereby lowering the stress level of those who do not want to be bothered.

Might be worth at least giving it a try. If it does not prove successful it can be removed after a trial period.

[Curt Trisko]

This forum has been a large part of my process of learning pedal steel. I have a thought on this topic that hasn't been expressed yet: I think there's a difference between a newbie asking a discrete, specific question and asking a more open-ended question.

A discrete question is entitled to a discrete answer instead of someone going off on a tangent of personal opinion. I personally haven't had a problem with this. However, for open-ended questions, colorful and attitude-filled responses are the kind of thing that online forums are made for. If the newbie is seeking only more serious and thoughtful responses, it's not difficult to separate those from the responses that are just made for the author's own amusement.

[Jerry Overstreet]

I read the original quoted post with much interest as it expresses my thoughts almost exactly as does b0b's response. I have to admit I've considered signing off too from time to time. Dumb and patronizing comments frustrate me.

Examples are a couple newbies whose first posts were in the classifieds. People inferring they were scammers, questionable dealings etc. Not cool. People join here for a variety of reasons. Not everybody wants to chat up everybody else. A for sale ad is not an indication of evil intent or disinterest in the other topics.

If I remember correctly, my first post was selling an old crossover here somewhere around 1999 or so.

I think we sometimes forget that we were once learning too and had some of the same questions that might seem basic and elementary to us now.

Many of the comments are unhelpful, patronizing, condescending and contain just downright bad information.

Someone asks about pickups, amps, speakers, effects, settings, guitar setups, adding levers, pedals etc. and get a response like, "Oh hell, you don't need all that stuff, just play the damn thing." I don't see how anyone can consider that attitude as helpful.

I always try to answer a question directly whether or not I agree with the premise. Not my place to say whether the idea is good or bad unless there is a definitive answer. I expect they will figure it all out the same as we did with time, money and experience. It's something everybody goes through.

No matter how much we get bored by seeing the same questions over and over, we have to realize that this is a first experience for newbies and it sure won't hurt some of us to review the basic elements either.

To the newbies I would say, don't take a response as gospel unless you know something about the player and their ability. Do a little research by searching their forum posts and also see if you can find some examples of their playing either here or on youtube.

It's easy to come off sounding like an expert if one doesn't have to back it up.

[Dan Robinson]

Don't be a jackass....
If you don't have something helpful to add, just don't post. Okay?

Yes!

We are a relative rarity in this world. We should be nice to each other and welcoming to new people who want to join in. We undoubtedly may not agree on some things, but we have a lot in common. Being nice to other steel players is not that hard.

There ya go. Let's be proactive, lead the cultural norm, and reduce the need for intervention by our first-class admins and moderators.

Curt is right... when you ask an open question, you might get a colorful answer. "Jackassery" is not a single event. Most anyone can rebound from the odd barb, but when the gang piles on, that drives people away. If you see it brewing, extend your reassurance (post or PM, don't fan the flames).

We all know the feeling of walking into a room full of strangers. A welcome from an old hand is awesome. Hello, welcome! I'm happy you are here. How can I help? It's not hard to be nice.

[Dustin Rigsby]

I often cringe when I read my first hundred or so posts....I was a really dumb newbie. Now I’m a really dumb veteran newbie

[Glenn Austin]

https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000477.html
the funniest thread or the most cruel.
I think that had the guy just waited a bit for people to reply , he would have gotten his answer

[Lee Baucum]

It can be a tad irritating when someone (newbie or veteran) posts a question that has been asked and answered many times before; however, the search functions aren't exactly prominently displayed.

When I run across a topic that I remember being discussed before, I like to go back and find it and post a link to it. The old topic may contain information that isn't posted in the new topic. By posting a link to the old topic, a cross-reference is created for future use.

[Don R Brown]

https://steelguitarforum.com/Forum8/HTML/000477.html
the funniest thread or the most cruel.
I think that had the guy just waited a bit for people to reply , he would have gotten his answer

That thread is a perfect example of what I posted a page or two back, saying I would NOT like to see this forum get so uptight, and so afraid of offending ANYone, that we can't have a bit of fun, or give-and-take.

Too bad he did not have a thicker skin. OK, so somebody made a joke and someone else appreciated the humor. Getting offended is part of life, and it helps to be able to shrug it off and move on. To get so upset as to leave, for that, seems way too sensitive to me but that's his choice.

[Skip Ellis]

I started playing before the forum and the internet even existed. I learned from Jeff Newman seminars and the Emmons course with all the Ray Price tunes. It helped that I was already an accomplished guitar player and had taught for many years - playing steel came relatively easy for me. I had to back the Wilburn Brothers after playing about five weeks - I had to learn in a hurry. I still say the best way to learn is get in a band and get away from playing in the house all the time. I stress this to people who want to learn steel. My pet peeve about a lot of the answers given by accomplished players is that they are just too intense for a beginner who has NO concept of what a scale is or how to construct a major chord. I tried to give some pointers to a good friend yesterday who just got his first decent steel. When I told him that you use the 1st, 4th and 5th chords in a key, he zoned out and couldn't fathom what I was talking about. Some players are of the "just play the dang thing" school and, OTOH, others are more 'anal' and care how many threads are on the end of their 4th string pull rod. I think the seasoned players should maybe be a little more thoughtful in giving advice and not overwhelming the newbie with long drawn out explanations that they don't understand. Sometimes, it's better to give advice in small portions than try to write a theory book that scares people away. I'm sure there are steelers out there that don't have a lot of knowledge about what they're playing, but they play very well.

I've met some great folks here and have never really felt offended by anything I've seen. It's a great resource for all of us - even oldtimers - we can all learn something new.

[Curt Trisko]

I started playing before the forum and the internet even existed. I learned from Jeff Newman seminars and the Emmons course with all the Ray Price tunes. It helped that I was already an accomplished guitar player and had taught for many years - playing steel came relatively easy for me. I had to back the Wilburn Brothers after playing about five weeks - I had to learn in a hurry. I still say the best way to learn is get in a band and get away from playing in the house all the time. I stress this to people who want to learn steel. My pet peeve about a lot of the answers given by accomplished players is that they are just too intense for a beginner who has NO concept of what a scale is or how to construct a major chord. I tried to give some pointers to a good friend yesterday who just got his first decent steel. When I told him that you use the 1st, 4th and 5th chords in a key, he zoned out and couldn't fathom what I was talking about. Some players are of the "just play the dang thing" school and, OTOH, others are more 'anal' and care how many threads are on the end of their 4th string pull rod. I think the seasoned players should maybe be a little more thoughtful in giving advice and not overwhelming the newbie with long drawn out explanations that they don't understand. Sometimes, it's better to give advice in small portions than try to write a theory book that scares people away. I'm sure there are steelers out there that don't have a lot of knowledge about what they're playing, but they play very well.

I've met some great folks here and have never really felt offended by anything I've seen. It's a great resource for all of us - even oldtimers - we can all learn something new.

I think you hit on a couple things with this comment - it resonates with my experience.

First, I haven't played in a band and most of my playing is done in my own home. One of the reasons for this is that I am apprehensive about spending my free time dealing with the kinds of personalities that fit the musician stereotype. No doubt this apprehension is at least somewhat validated by the type of behavior on the forum that we're discussing in this thread. Maybe I'd have been more willing to join a band if the mood on here had been better? Who knows?

Second, I was the type of beginner that you describe. Steel was my first instrument and I had only a basic knowledge of music theory when I started. I knew I had to learn it, but I approached it with the attitude that I didn't want to suck the magic out of music. It'd be like if the first day of veterinary school involved dissecting someone's pet that had just been put down.

[b0b]

I think enough has been said here. Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful responses. Topic closed.