Always Too Loud?????

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 18 Feb 2002 2:52 pm

Jeff: To respond to your original complaint, yes, many steel players play too damn loud. I've been guilty of this a time or two. I always respond to the request to turn down, but I hear about "other steel players" all the time from the various bands I've worked with. Since we love the sound of our instrument, it's easy to assume everyone else loves it too and wants to hear it (loud). Not true.

This must be the thing we all have to master after having learned our precious licks, runs, chords. That is DYNAMICS. Ever notice how nice the steel sounds after it's dropped out for a few bars--assuming the player is competent?

Most local bands don't have two guitars, fiddle, keyboards, etc. to share the load. We steelers get into the habit of filling in where these instruments would on record or in a larger touring band, hence we're in the habit of playing most of the time. With a competent guitar player, one who can play rhythm (in addition to the usual barrage of hot licks), it is possible to edit your playing and even drop out for short periods.
I've had bandleaders fuss at me for dropping out for a few bars, and I've had 'em do the same for playing too many fills and pads. Go figure. As has been mentioned before, every situation is unique, that refers to room acoustics, personalities, and the level of talent on stage.

I think this is one of the more worthwhile topics on this forum. The overall impression of an act is affected by how well the members play together. This may be why bluegrass and acoustic music has more appeal to me these days--there's more focus on the music and less on the tangle of gear used to make it louder.
--JR

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 18 Feb 2002 3:05 pm

One thing I'll say in defense of steel players accused of playing too loud: Often somebody will complain that it's too loud if just a few notes spike up to a brief high volume. Even if the band's overall volume is under control and the dynamics are working. One loud solo or phrase can offend somebody and you'll get a complaint.

Let's face it, these days most bands tend to play too loud as the sound reinforcement is so evolved. I was at the Cactus Cafe at U.T. awhile back. This is a "folk circuit" venue on campus and the acts are usually singles, duos and trios, always acoustic. They have a killer three-way sound system with a rack of power amps, equalizers, effects and a large 24 track console. It's unbelieveable how loud some singer songwriters can get. With this gear, add an electric guitar and a steel and you've got Woodstock volume inside a 50' x 50' room. Yeah, I too miss the good ol' days sometimes when the music didn't have to compete with the sound. Sometimes I don't know if we've progressed that much or not.
--JR

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 18 Feb 2002 3:33 pm

I don't know where the rest of you play but I've been at this business for over 35 years and as far as what I would call "normal situations" say bars, VFW's, Amvet Clubs, hotel meeting rooms, I don't see the need to mike anything. We never used to mike anything years ago and it seems you're asking for more trouble of being too loud. I think the vocals sound a lot better with nothing else in the PA for your average club or bar gig. Why mike it at all? If you're going to mike everything you'll need a lot bigger PA, monitors, and there goes the volume. I'd say 90% of the gigs I've played never miked a thing. You can put the PA cabinets across the room and hear it just fine. What's wrong with that? You're hearing the actual mix so you don't have to bother with monitors. Some stages (most stages) don't have enough room anyway.

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 18 Feb 2002 4:02 pm

For a sound reinforcement system to be effectively heard by the audience and the sound guy, it must be 6-10 db louder than the band's stage volume. That's a least twice as loud. Often the P.A. won't go that loud. There are laws of physics at work here, you can only supply so much gain before it begins to feed back. If your singer sounds like they are yelling instead of singing, there is definitely a huge problem. With a decent stage volume, the singer could conceivably point his mic right at the monitor , or sing in front of a speaker, with no problem at all, provided it's ringed out properly, but it all hinges on how loud things are on stage. It's one big balancing act. Personally I like to hear the sound of my amp, so I mount it on a stand and point it at my head. It's been my observation, that the gain of an amplifier is proportional to the amount of alcohol ingested by its guitarist/owner.

Jeff Coffell · Post by **Jeff Coffell** » 18 Feb 2002 4:22 pm

We have the p.a. to handle the twice as much volume as the amps on stage. That is exactly my point. If the damn amp is louder that the p.a. Ddddduh? If you mic all your equipment, the stage volume can be low enough to carry on a conversation on stage if you need to. You know, like tell the bass player what the next song is or say what needs to be said without screaming your head off.
Yes, I've played music for about 40 years now and have played without monitors and without micing anything. I feel no mater what size the club or arena is that you are playing, you need to be miced. What's the use in having a sound man? That's the sound mans job. Or in our case the sound WOMAN.
I've actually had a steel player tell me he could run sound better from the stage better than any sound man ever could. Yo tell me how anyone can tell what it sounds like back in that back dark corner of the vfw or billy bobs or anywhere else. Common, get real. Sound people out front are very important part of todays music. Oh, I'd better back up a clarify myself. We don't play top forty or very little of it. We play Haggard, Jones, Price, you get my pint I guess.
It also came up that you loose your tone through the p.a. I don't agree, if every gig I set the different instrument myseld as far as highs lows mids etc. As the night goes on all that is need in most cases is just fading the rides and fills in and out.
Back to the point. Why in the hell play loud enough to hurt the other ears on stage much less the poor people dancing in front of your amps?
Jeff

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 18 Feb 2002 4:37 pm

Hi Jeff:
Yes, I'll be in Dallas. I'm playing on Thursday evening sometime. See ya there.
Jimbeaux

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 18 Feb 2002 4:47 pm

I think part of the problem is the 12 and 15 inch speakers in guitar amps. If I don't have my amp pointing right at my head, I'm not hearing it properly. I've been told at band practices to turn down because I was killing everybody, yet it didn't seem loud to me at all. So I got myself an amp stand. Black Widows can really throw a lot of sound a long way. That's not necessarily bad, but not great either. Plus I think a lot of musicians don't feel like they are in the zone unless their amp is on 11. It's just a bad habit. Kind of like listening to loud music when you are driving down the highway.

Cal Sharp · Post by **Cal Sharp** » 18 Feb 2002 10:34 pm

As kind of a soc project, I've been trying for years to play at a comfortable volume, which is almost always way lower than the rest of the band, when it's my turn to play my little solo and see if they adjust their volume accordingly. (Can you say "dynamics"?)So far, Pete Mitchell is the only musician who's hip to what I'm doing, and that's because he listens to the band more than he listens to himself.

C#

Reggie Duncan · Post by **Reggie Duncan** » 18 Feb 2002 10:46 pm

I set my amp in a chair behind me, close enough to reach the EQ. I have no problem hearing the drums, so my monitor has keyboard, rhythm guitar, and mostly bass guitar. No steel or vocals! Steel sounds terrible in the monitors and I hear enough vocals through their monitors out front. I play with the most considerate band in the world! www.countryvillage.com

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 19 Feb 2002 4:06 am

For years and years I participated in the volume war, sometimes I confess, I probably started it ! It's real easy for a 6 string lead player to feel he has to turn up especially if he ( or she ) is playing on a single pole guitar like a Tele that don't really cut like say a Les Paul or 335. If a guitar player can't "feel" their tone then they will turn up to get it, it's not an excuse or a justification but it is what it is. Generally I have found this occurs when Bass players or rythem players ( on electrics) get the urge to be "heard" as well so they turn up ! So let the games begin ! I was playing with a band not all that long ago where the lead vocalist was playing electric rythem, no solo's just chords and he would turn up and do the Pete Townshend thing with the power chords. I was playing lead on a Tele with a Hot Rod Delux, enough power to cover any club gig, well not with these guys. He was killing the solo's and me..During the break one night I went over and literally turned the volume down on his amp. They didn't like that, they fired me and told me I didn't fit in the band. I was amazed, thats all it took ! Had I known I would have done it weeks earlier and not tried to find an excuse to quit ! I am now playing Steel as my primary Instrument and I am not going to participate in the volume wars . I have a Nashville 400 and a Nashville 1000, I am pretty certain I could play a few Hi Volume swells with these two baby's. Knowing I can win the war is worth more than going to war !
TP[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 19 February 2002 at 04:11 AM.]

Jeff Coffell · Post by **Jeff Coffell** » 19 Feb 2002 5:36 am

Back up to my last post and read the question guys.Do steel shows have anything to do woth what is happening to my band and many others?

Jeff Coffell · Post by **Jeff Coffell** » 19 Feb 2002 5:41 am

Ya know, I'd really like to know what some of the real heavy weights have to say about this. Most of the time if the big boys speak up, most people will listen. I'm not putting any one down here, I'd like toalso hear from the Emmons, Hughey's, Green's etc. People who have been where most of us are at today, the bars and arenas that most of us weekend warriors play and have gone on to professional gigs. I'm sure they can teach us a big lesson on volume,tone etc.

Come on bigs boys, HELP US OUT HERE.

Bobby Seymor, What do you think bout this little topic?

Jeff

PLUMB COUNTRY

Jeff Coffell · Post by **Jeff Coffell** » 19 Feb 2002 12:59 pm

Come on guys, I need an answer

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 19 Feb 2002 1:01 pm

I'll throw my .02 in here...I've been playing for several years with the same band, doing steel, guitar and vocals.

I stand up to play guitar and the sound/volume is totally different in each position as most will agree. What we got to remember is that this is a team sport. If you hear something that you don't like, bring it up right away so that it dosen't stew and encourage the others to do the same...they will respect you for it.

If someone dosen't want to go along, either ax them or live with it. What else can you do with multiple personalities? I don't know if there is a right way to set up and run sound as noted from all the opinions on this interesting thread...I've found myself in most of them at one time or another and with a good band and personalities, you'll find a way to make it work.

As with my sarcastic signature, this has been an on-going "ribbing" subject with the band.

Best regards to all,

Tom Jordan

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Vocals (vo'kels) adj. Guttural noise made by a person filling space between Steel Guitar Licks, while the wiley picker contemplates his next volley...may be removed from mix if it becomes distracting.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 19 Feb 2002 3:16 pm

...band..."an organized group of people having a common objective"....

(1)To be effective a band must be cohesive, and a basic requirement to accomplish that is that each member must be able to hear all the other members...otherwise, it is just a bunch of individuals on stage "doing their own thing" as someone above so aptly stated.

(2)After the basic requirement above is reached, the next step is to transfer the result to the listening audience in a form acceptable to them.

Experienced musicians will agree that (1) & (2) above are very seldom the same, because the audience will be listening for something different than the musicians. The balance on-stage and balance for the "room" must be approached from different perspectives.

When playing "casual" jobs I have often found myself in circumstances described in earlier posts.....so if the stage volume is too loud to hear myself play I usually compensate by adjusting my volume to the level I can barely hear myself...which means that if everyone else is too loud, then of course I am too loud too...and I hate that! www.genejones.com

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 19 Feb 2002 4:57 pm

Jeff,
You mentioned you are all good friends.
Have you spoken directly with him/them (the steel player/s who play too loud) about this?
What is their side of this story?

One thing that I've seen happen in bands is that when one member is unhappy with another member, they tell EVERYONE BUT the offending member how pissed off they are (not saying this is the case with you, just something I've seen).

It sounds like a "Constructive Confrontation" is in order.
Let us know how it works out!!!

I found that once I got a nice set of custom musicians earplugs I was pretty much good to go... even if I had to set up right next to that lame @ss B-bendin' Mo-Fo!

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 20 February 2002 at 08:58 AM.]

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 19 Feb 2002 8:33 pm

Pete, yer killin, me here...
"that lame @ss B-bendin' Mo-Fo!"

Tom

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Vocals (vo'kels) adj. Guttural noise made by a person filling space between Steel Guitar Licks, while the wiley picker contemplates his next volley...may be removed from mix if it becomes distracting.

Steve Miller · Post by **Steve Miller** » 19 Feb 2002 10:24 pm

I ALWAYS leave my volume at the same level at every gig. My amp is ALWAYS miked. It is the sound man's job to set volume levels. I refuse to participate in a volume war. It is totally unprofessional and ANYONE who does it should be EMBARRASSED!

If the other musicians want to hear me, they can TURN DOWN! I can hear myself just fine.

Have you ever been on stage and noticed the audience slowly shifting to your side of the stage? Have you ever turned around and seen a half dozen people crowded around your amp? I have, and when the rest of the band sees this happen it must be very embarrassing for them. GOOD!

You don't need to be one of the top players to know the rules. They ought to be perfectly obvious.

Leave your EGO at the door. Tonight we're playing in the key of Selflessness!

OK I'm through venting now.

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 20 Feb 2002 1:07 am

Music is conversation, that says it all

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 20 Feb 2002 2:25 am

Most of the small bands I played with early on had a small sound system for vocals only, we did not have the system strength to mic all the amps as well. I would agree that the bands I played with which had eveything thru the board and where the players had discipline , we had a good mix. But as soon as a player looses discipline, regardless of the type of sound system or direct volume from amps, the volume war begins and doesn't end until everyone packs up and goes home. basically what I'm saying is, it always comes back to the players, in my opinion. Even at some of the Steel shows I have attended the band is pretty consistent, but the steel players can be blistering loud or way to soft...go figure, , it still comes back to the individual player, at least in my view.
TP

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 20 Feb 2002 9:20 am

Another thought...
Whenever there has been a problem with a co-worker (on my day job) it seems that "documentation" of the problem is required to show to everybody involved that there really is a problem, and a "corrective action plan" is developed and implemented to correct the problem.
I've seen it go both ways... the person gets it together and does fine, or the person accumulates "3-strikes" and gets fired.

Applying that analogy to a band...
Get a Decibel meter and document the volume of the steel players you deem acceptable, as well as the steel players you deem un-acceptable.

You could check different players volumes over the course of the night and graph it out in an Excell spreadsheet.

Now you can sit down with the person and show him where his volume typically is and where it needs to be.
You can give him the Db meter and he can use it train himself in volume control.

You probably don't have to go through all that, but if had a meter you could check all kinds of stuff including overall band volume, other bands, other bands steel players, ect...

I got a radio shack Db meter (around $40) and tried this with our tele player.
He finally got the message when I shoved the meter sidways up the "new one" I ripped him!

(Love 'dem pointy cowboy boots!)

[This message was edited by Pete Burak on 20 February 2002 at 09:22 AM.]

Bill Myrick · Post by **Bill Myrick** » 20 Feb 2002 3:34 pm

Just finished a gig for senior citizens last night in Springdale and was told the crowd couldn't quite hear me as well as they'd like. I had my amp setting at my left side aimed directly at me. I have used this for years with no complaints for being too loud. If the situation requires that I play too loud to suit me, I then turn it a bit towards the crowd but not unless needed.
First time out with the Hilton Pedal--- I Love It !!!!!! -

Jeff Coffell · Post by **Jeff Coffell** » 20 Feb 2002 4:29 pm

Thanks to all . More later.[This message was edited by Jeff Coffell on 20 February 2002 at 04:36 PM.]

Jeff Coffell · Post by **Jeff Coffell** » 20 Feb 2002 4:33 pm

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm gonna digest all this information and try to get a plan of action. Please remember, this does not apply to just one steel player, it's the majority of the players I've ever played with. In other words I'm not pointing my finger at just one person.