Is the Emmons Guitar begining to loose it's grip?

[Erv Niehaus]

Every pedal steel is good.
However, some are gooder than others.
Erv

[Johnie King]

Donny your right as rain there’s probably not a dimes difference in the major brands these days the Steel builders are all making very fine instruments. I don’t know know any major brand steel that I would not be proud too own.
But I’m going to give the old push pull my vote for tone plus the Franklins maybe the older the violin the sweeter the music comes into play here.

[Curt Trisko]

I don't really love or hate any guitar. They're all somewhat different, and they all have faults and merits. What I can't understand are the people who get offended when someone else says they do not care for the brand that they prefer. Like...what exactly is the big deal? Even Buddy Emmons bought and played other brands. Were these guys pissed off at him when he bought a ZumSteel? (Yeah, probably.) When Buddy posted that he couldn't hear any difference between the sound of the Emmons and the Carter, did that "offend" them?

Honestly, all this smugness that certain players have about this brand or that is rather childish and unbecoming. I'd have thought we'd have all outgrown that kind of behavior when we got out of grade-school. Look, it's one thing to prefer one brand over another, most of us do that. But when someone feels the need to jump in and insinuate that what they play is far better than everything else out there, and that the rest of us are ignorant for not buying into their preferences, that's just plain stupid.

Couldn't agree more... but isn't that one of the wonderful things about music? All the emotional attachments and connections it creates bleeds over to the driest, most insignificant details.

[Bill Miller]

I've never gotten to play an Emmons. The closest I got was one time I chatted with George Edwards as he tore down his push pull while trying to talk me into buying it. And I would have except that the money wasn't there. So instead I carried it out and put it on the bus for him and considered it an honor.
There's that mystique that Emmons has had and probably all steelers have wanted to own one at some point. But what took some of the edge off that ambition for me was hearing all the stories about money paid to the company with no goods or services being rendered. Or other stories of new LeGrande IIIs being thrown together and delivered falling apart. It's a shame the reputation of the company was marred by all that. And now anyone considering buying a used one has to consider the issue of reliably getting parts or service if needed. I would still like to have a push pull but some of the shine has worn off.

[Bill L. Wilson]

I’ve had my ‘95 Emmons LeGrande II since ‘05 and it’s definitely the best pedal steel I’ve ever owned. Never has it given me any trouble, sounds great, plays great, looks great, and to me the Mystique of an Emmons is what all pedal steels want. Besides that, I just bought a brand new motor home, so the old Emmons is my last steel.

[Tom Vollmer]

Barry
Still waiting for E-Mail response to come to the jam Sun Apr 7. There will be a couple Emmnons Push Pulls, Le grande ,Zum JCH, Mullen and you can listen or play any to get more insight on sound of each.
Also Emmons PP sounded great when new and now they are 30 to 50 years old and what effect does aging have on an instruments sound.my pal Henry Cassel thinks along with the wood aging there is an aging effect on the other pieces of the instrument.
Also two of the Push Pulls at the jam are a 1200, and a 1400 which makes them late 60,s or early 70,s .

[Tony Prior]

Its also very probable that with the addition and popularity of other brands and appearance packages such as Zum, Mullen G2 , Sho Pro etc, the markets have shifted away from the plain ole plain ole boring black or brown. Everyone likes a good looking piece of wood or a nice dual color appearance package, which also has a great guitar underneath ! I doubt anyone is walking away from or not selecting any Emmons guitar because it was not made well or doesn't sound good, we have more options today then ever before. Its the nature of the times and market. Now, we can have it all ! Looks great on the top and the bottom !

Another thing to consider is the initial purchase prices, many here offer their Steels at about the same as what they paid for them. Seeing that Emmons has been CLOSED for many years now, the new guitars back then didn't cost what the new guitars cost today. I recall being at the Emmons shop early 2000's, Ron Jr offered me a brand new Legrande II D10 for I think $3300, it appears the buyer cancelled out, I should have bought it. Try getting a brand new anything D10 today for $3300 !

It's part of the equation overall I feel. It may not be so much as Emmons prices are dropping compared to others that are higher because they PAID more in recent years. The selling window is a moving target. Nothings equal.

[Barry Yasika]

Barry
Still waiting for E-Mail response to come to the jam Sun Apr 7. There will be a couple Emmnons Push Pulls, Le grande ,Zum JCH, Mullen and you can listen or play any to get more insight on sound of each.
Also Emmons PP sounded great when new and now they are 30 to 50 years old and what effect does aging have on an instruments sound.my pal Henry Cassel thinks along with the wood aging there is an aging effect on the other pieces of the instrument.
Also two of the Push Pulls at the jam are a 1200, and a 1400 which makes them late 60,s or early 70,s .

Hi Tom, I sent you two emails on your jam, I just sent a PM about it. My email address is byasika@netzero.com or bmyasika@gmail.com. Mostly I just need to know what time and what address. Thanks Bud!!

[Tab Tabscott]

Ive had the same Emmons since 1977. I bought another one a few years ago for like $3500 and then I sent it to Lynn Stafford for a $3000 rebuild. a year later--Worth every penny.

I bought a 70's Super Pro and Lynn has that one now doing the same rebuild thing. I had a bunch of the other brands over the last half century, but the Emmons and the Sho Bud are the only ones that stuck.

[Ken Byng]

In terms of quality, the variation of Emmons guitars over the years is remarkable. I have to say that one of the worst new builds that I have ever seen was a LeGrande 3, bought by a guy in London. The pitting in the aluminium necks was a disgrace, and the guitar had been thrown together when it was assembled. The buyer was met with abuse and disdain from Lashley Jnr when he contacted him to complain. We've all seen some of the nightmare stories on here of poor customer service. The resale value of the LeGrande that I saw in London would have been instantly less than half of what the buyer paid for it.

Somewhat differently, my push pull (very early 80's) is immaculately assembled and the fit and finish is excellent. Unlike the defective LeGrande that I inspected, my Emmons looks as though whoever put it together ensured that all components were top quality and that they had assembled it with love. I once owned a LeGrande 11 and it was not bad at all.

I guess that the moral of the story is that not all Emmons guitars were created equal, and really do require close scrutiny before laying out any amount of cash. Tone-wise, my Emmons sounds pretty good to my ears, and resonates well. None of my guitars have bad tone, but considering that my Emmons was built almost 40 years ago it more than holds its own with any of my more modern guitars. Is the Emmons sound a myth or fact? You pay your money and take your choice. The tracks that Weldon Myrick played on his push pull in his heyday contain the sweetest tone that I have ever heard in my opinion. Mike Johnson's red push pull sounds wonderful right from the first fret to the last. So too does Jay Dee Maness's guitar.

Certainly the kudos of owning an Emmons guitar is nowhere near that of owning a Franklin. However, if I see a modern show where the steeler is playing a push pull, I know that player means business.

[Jerry Overstreet]

At first, I viewed this topic as just a trivial cheerleading discussion, I still think it's generally for people who adore Emmons guitars...BUT, with the re-furbishing, restoring, sprucing up of these guitars, particularly push pull models by people like Billy Knowles, Mike Scaggs, Lynn, Henry et al. I feel like they will probably be in more use.

Getting them back to good playing condition and visually appealing instruments will probably boost their value as well.

Yes, I once played a cut-tail P/P and I wish I still had it. I can also say that about some other brands and models of guitars I've owned.

I have played and done maintenance on several LeGrande models as well, but I don't see anything particularly great or different about them compared to other modern all pull guitars in design, playability or value. JMO.

[Eric Philippsen]

There are many who know a lot about Emmons steels. A lot more than me. I have a few and have 2 cents worth of opinion about them.

Asking and selling prices go up and down. Seen it. Followed it. Kind of tough to determine the market for steels. Lot easier to determine the market for 6-strings, amps and gear. Franklins and Bigsby’s are real tough. There’s just so few of them and so few of those players with deep enough pockets who want and can afford one.

I still think how well any steel is set up and adjusted contributes a lot to its appeal and value. Sat down to plenty of Emmons that played terribly because of bad adjustment. Compare that to the LDG I sent to Ricky Davis who went through it. When I got it back it sounded great.

[Tom Vollmer]

Jack OK to Attend Check with Barry for info

[scott murray]

not to veer off-topic too much but the Legrande III's in particular seem to be getting a bad rap in this thread. I can honestly say mine is about the nicest playing and sounding guitar I've ever used.

it's a shame some guitars may have been inexpertly assembled or rushed in any way. but inconsistency in quality has been a problem with Emmons and other brands since at least the 70s.

it's one of the reasons Buddy left the Emmons company, and he was quoted as saying some of the p/p's were real "dogs" (he may have been referring to the lacquer guitars specifically).

but it's also worth noting that in the last 10 years or so of his life, he was playing 2 Emmons guitars heavily. here's a quote I found from 2004:

I'm down to an Emmons push/pull, a Legrande III, and a JCH, but I don't favor one over the other until I decide how I want to use them. If I want a good sound plus the ultimate in pedal and knee capabilities and new changes, I'll choose the JCH. For a good combination of tone and mechanics without the new stuff, it's the Legrande. And for the ultimate sound sprinkled with a little nuisance value, I'd play the push/pull as a reminder that you can get the job done without the bells and whistles.

here's another quote where he compares the P/P to the LG:

I just put 17.5k pickups in my Legrande and it toned the highs down and gave the guitar a sweet mid range clarity the stock 20Ks masked out. The black Legrande with 20Ks was muddy and the 17.5s allowed better definition of the intervals on both necks. As for the P/P comparison, the Legrande has a fundamental sound similar to that of my push pull but the timbre changes on both guitars at different areas of the fretboard. At the same amp settings, the Legrande defines the high end better from the 1st to around the 11th fret. From there, the push pull gradually takes over. For tunings, the P/P has a sweeter and more transparent sound across strings 1 through 10 on the E9th but the Legrande has the edge over the P/P on the C6th tuning. All pickups are Emmons single coil and the P/P's are 20K, so it may not have been a fair test for the push pull but I was satisfied with the results.

For maximum performance, I would choose the Legrande III with the counter-force. As much as I like the old P/Ps, I used one on a session a couple of weeks ago and had problems tuning it because I had forgotten I had to tune to compensate for cabinet drop. The Legrande has the Emmons sound plus the advantages of split combinations built in. If you're looking for the tightest sound the P/Ps are hard to beat but there are a lot of tradeoffs.

[Bill Moran]

Emmons guitars are like Corvettes . There are two kind of steel players. The people that own a Emmons and people that want one.

[Barry Yasika]

Emmons guitars are like Corvettes . There are two kind of steel players. The people that own a Emmons and people that want one.

At the risk of sounding pretentious, Love it Bill!!!!!

[Lee Baucum]

Emmons guitars are like Corvettes . There are two kind of steel players. The people that own a Emmons and people that want one.

I wish I could afford to buy a Corvette, and then I wouldn't.
(To paraphrase Jimmy Day)

[Clyde Mattocks]

Watching the prices solely as a spectator sport, they seem to fluctuate kind of seasonally. As of right now, the push/pulls appear to be slightly down. The LeGrandes seem to be slightly north or south of 3500.00. There is always that exceptional guitar that defies the current trend.

[scott murray]

played a Merle Haggard tribute in Asheville NC tonight with 4 different steel players, every one of us playing an Emmons. I think the brand is doing ok!

[Rick Barnhart]

I’ve come to realize, it’s not the machine...it’s the operator.

[Don Poland]

I've never wanted a corvette

[Brad Malone]

Why was the Legrande III discontinued?....seems that they have a good following and that they are respected as great Steels.

[Douglas Schuch]

I think, to a certain extend, both Sho-Bud and Emmons prices are influenced by their success as builders. They were the most common brands for many years, meaning there are lots of them out there on the used market. Neither has been built in a while, but every year other builders put out new steel guitars while these classics get older and potentially more worn. As Tab Tabscott's post makes apparent, to get a "good as new" P/P refurbished by a master like Lynn Stafford costs as much if not more than buying a brand new steel from almost any builder today.

In the end, if you believe in market theory, then the price is based on supply and demand. It seems to me the "demand" lately has been for the very early P/P's, and not so much the mid-70's and beyond models. So, when other brands (notably Zumsteel and Infinity) have seen their used prices climb, later model P/P's seem to be at about the same price they were when I joined the forum about 8 years ago. Still, that's not a bad price for a 40+ year old guitar!

And while we all would go to our grave denying it, still, "fashion" and trends do influence which steel guitars are drawing the big prices at any point in time. Yep! I'm saying that most of the members of the SGF (but certainly not you or me) are slaves to fashion!

[Bruce W Heffner]

No.

[Tony Prior]

Why was the Legrande III discontinued?....seems that they have a good following and that they are respected as great Steels.

They were ALL discontinued !

We can all make claims about this and that, a poorly built instrument here and there, poor design, less than quality parts that break etc... The fact of the matter, here is a brand, like Sho Bud that is still holding it's own even after being out of business for a good bit of time !

Will an L- something or other or a Push Pull sell at the asking price ? Maybe not but it will sell eventually at some price within range. It won't sit around for years in a closet because it didn't sell.

Push Pulls are not for everyone, that should be a known given . Various reasons. Mechanics, action , set-up etc... Some people will pass because of its nature, not because of the price.

"Should I buy that old black or brown P Pull for $3000 or that other fairly new ALL Pull for $3500 in a kool color " ?

Another thing is indeed color , not everyone is attracted to a special color but MOST will accept black or brown as they are common and widely accepted.

A guy down the road has been trying to sell his bright yellow new Camaro for months now. Its still sitting with the "For Sale" sign.

regarding Steels for sale with "color" , to me it doesn't much matter what brand it is, Emmons included, if it's a color that I can't connect with, I'm not part of the "interested buyers" club. Price is not even a consideration, I never even got that far !


too may variables