Do you think scales or extended chords?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 18 Jul 2003 9:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I would selfishly love to hear him
doing just what was suggested though<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm selfish too. It would be a dream for me for the jazz scene in NYC to have a ready acceptance of steel guitar as a fundamental instrument in the jazz makeup, along with piano, horns, 6-string guitar, etc. It would be amazing to have the steel have an understood jazz dynamic (chord stylings, improvisational approaches, technical elements, type of tone, etc.) the way an electric guitar does, so instead of having to think of it in terms of playing horn lines, or piano harmony, it would have it's own voice, which could be broad like a piano or guitar, but it would be uniquely defined as a jazz instrument. This is what I want. I want jazz combos and bands to seek to have a steel because they believe it belongs there, not to listen to it as a novelty and pidgeon-hole it into minor roles when it's used. I want singers to seek a steel for solo accompaniment, the way they do piano and guitar. When a modern jazz record is cut, I want the producer automatically to think of putting a steel on the record. I know it's easy to think of all the reasons why it won't happen, but how far will that go? Electric guitar was accepted relatively late in the evolution of jazz. So it can happen.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 18 Jul 2003 9:35 pm

I know a lot of the idea that a steel doesn't belong in jazz comes from ideas revolving around tone and tradition. Maybe with the kind of jazz this view has in mind, there may be some truth to it.

But continuing with the guitar analogy: It did take awhile before guitarists caught up with horn players and pianists technically, and were accepted as a legitimate lead voice. But further, it's taken awhile for the solid body electric guitar with distortion to be accepted in jazz alongside the big hollow-body guitars. (Actually, they don't really exist alongside each other. They probably represent different idioms.)

The jazz guitarists that I personally relate most completely with are guys like Allan Holdsworth and Bill Frisell. In my way of thinking, the steel coexists very easily with that sound; and not a "dark" steel tone either, but one as bright as you want to make it.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 19 Jul 2003 2:28 am

To get sort of back to the question, I find that the concept of superimposing triads over the chords has a lot of utility in hearing and playing things outside of the box(es). Major triads ascending in minor thirds, etc. I believe this was a foundation of bebop improvising, though it's much easier for me to visualize on standard guitar than steel, so far.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 Jul 2003 8:22 am

Jeff, If I still lived in the Big Apple I wouldn't hesitate a minute to do a jazz gig with you.
Have 6 string bass, will groove.

Drums, steel, bass, soprano sax, trumpet or flugelhorn
DD
Still lost in the south of France[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 July 2003 at 09:24 AM.]

Cory Dolinsky · Post by **Cory Dolinsky** » 19 Jul 2003 12:03 pm

one thing i like doing is hearing differnet modes over a chord. an easy example would be something like miles davis's 'so what" its just a D minor chord and moves up a half step, but you can put some nice harmonies over it by putting it in different modes.
if you put it in the key of c as a ii minor (D dorian)thats one sound you always hear over it. or you could play the chord scale as a iii minor in the key of Bb flat which makes it sound phrygian.
or make the D minor a viminor in the key of F and it will sound aeolian. and the alterations are endless to come up with cool phrases. which in turn you could do for harder changes that can be simplified and use the same method to come up with cool ideas than just playing "over the chords"

i had a similar problem with giantsteps, playing it with a bunch of berklee musicians and an awesome piano player with perfect pitch. but i went home and studied it and found the common relationship of the song and it pretty much revolves in three keys G B And Eb

a G whole tone scale fits great over all of the 3 keys (G A B C# D# or Eb and F) with the F alternating between it being an F and F# which it already does in the melody. and maybe resolving it to one of the major keys if you feel like it. it made it alot easier for me especially when the drummer kicks it off at lightning speeds. then you dont have to worry about hitting all of the ii-V's and and you come up with some cool phrases and not sound so mechanical.

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 19 Jul 2003 12:10 pm

Toots Theilman is an excellent example. That's why there's a harmonica in every jazz combo.

-John

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 19 Jul 2003 3:18 pm

Jeff,

As for your dream, I too, would love to see the steel as a mainstay in Jazz, heck! I even want it a mainstay in ALL other forms of music. A legit Jazz record is high on my list of things to do. Session playing is the best diving board!

This is my opinion and as Jody pointed out Buddy gave a more than excellent performance on his Jazz record just as you suggested. Has anything changed in the Jazz world for our instrument? John's one liner sums it up for me. Toot's is respected worldwide as a great Jazz musician but, his instrument is not widely used, The same is true with the steel and Buddy's musicianship.

When anyone expresses an interest, I do the best with what God gave me to educate players about the pedal steel. Isn't that really ALL we can do to knock down barriers of misconceptions?

Paul

Edited for the wording. I think my opinion is more clear written this way. Hopefully it reads as a positive statement and not a negative one.

I like Jeff's vision. A duet with steel and Tony Bennett. Now that's cool!

"The love of Jazz inspires me to practice everyday!"

[This message was edited by Franklin on 19 July 2003 at 04:32 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 19 July 2003 at 04:56 PM.][This message was edited by Franklin on 19 July 2003 at 05:06 PM.]

John Russell · Post by **John Russell** » 19 Jul 2003 7:45 pm

It seemed like things were moving in that direction in the '70s. Some early inspirations were Doug Jernigan in Hillbilly jazz, a couple of songs by J.J. Cale on the "Troubador" album featuring Lloyd Green and a few others I can't recall. Oh yeah, Steely Dan! I was sure it was all gonna fuse and the steel would have arrived.

Buddy Emmons live at Scotty's recorded in about 1977 brought the thing to fruition but by the end of the decade, popular music took off in other directions and the steel guitar became a country music instrument again.

Well, we're due for more experimentation. How about Paul F. with Nora Jones? Diana Krall?

Sorry, Leon, for hijacking your thread. It does relate somehow as the steel can actually do this music, producers are slow to accept, however. --JR

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 20 Jul 2003 12:09 am

I guess my comments were overly concise, and lacking any positive tone

so I'll elaborate.
I hope everyone knows I love jazz, and I love steel guitars. What someone else likes or dislikes is less of a concern to me. I know alot of the forumites feel there should be a "steel guitar in every pot". That's fine. I don't feel any pressing need to convert anyone. It doesn't need to be anything more than it is already to be beautiful to me.
Anyway.. "jazz snobs". Never met one. Right up there with unicorns in my book. There's nothing in anyone's attitude that's holding this or any other instrument back from functioning in a jazz context. It's all in the player.
The concept of looking at a jazz gig is something of a Golden Ring to reach for is somewhat perplexing to me. Alot of the jazz musicians I know are working scale gigs to empty rooms, relegated to playing wallpaper music for pate-munchers... and, strange as it seems, might even be slightly jealous of country players who play to big, swingin' rooms full of partying, dancing young folks, and take home at least $100 a night.
The other thing that perplexes me about this, and other similar threads is the fact that there are people out there doing this stuff who need our support. Meanwhile we sit here and say "Gee I wish someone was...."
Nobody has mentioned Hal Merril, who has been producing jazz steel recordings in the modern vein for a few years now.
Nora Jones ? Forumite Bob Hoffnar, if I'm not mistaken, has worked with her in the past, and may still be working with her. (Bob?)
How about Dave Easley's work with Brian Blade ? Nobody's mentioned that.
Not to take away from the mention of Mr. Franklin's obvious talents, but there are people out there doing it. But the market is extremely small.
As for PF, I think at this point Mr. Franklin should play whatever in heck he wants to play.

-John

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 20 Jul 2003 12:46 am

Cool topic! Now back to the original question...

Paul...I´ve always been curious if you still
draw much from the ¨Lydian Chromatic Concept¨ by George Russell? (I read that you were into it in the past). Mr. Russell has his own interpretation of the terms ¨vertical¨& ¨horizontal¨. I still kind of think in those terms too & have wondered if you might also ?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 20 Jul 2003 4:08 am

Yes back to chords and scales.
To do jazz your must be thinking in both, as parts of the same.
To do modes you must think of alternate scales to the chords.
So it is all layers under and over layers.
But the building blocks are the chords.
( even if inversly the chords are built from the scales)

~To play over complex changes you need to to think what SCALES are built out of the chords progressions. Then you must think of the alternatives of those possible lines.

To write a jazz piece you must look at a scalare root motion overlayed with chords, but yet this is also several stacked parallel scales. And each of those can be played over the changes, or parts of several parallel lines grabed for another line design.

So as Jeff says it's impossible to seperate the two. But how you LOOK at the song at any given time can change depending on your understanding of the under lying logic of the piece.

Or you can just chuck it all out the window and lay bricks.

Franklin · Post by **Franklin** » 20 Jul 2003 8:10 am

Rick,
Yes, I did study awhile from his method and concluded that I was only learning a new way to look at alot of the old things I had already learned to apply. I have talked to alot of Jazz players and found they came to the same conclusion. If I had no knowledge prior to getting that book it would be as valid a musical study as anything out there.

The key thing that I try to avoid is repetition when it comes to learning from other players or concepts. For instance, Some concepts or players will debate the importance of learning pentatonics as both major and minor. I see that as an unimportant issue and a waist of my study time. C major pentatonic is C D E G A C but those notes are also defined as an A minor pentatonic. My approach was to choose one way to define those notes period, then I learned how that scale was applied over various chord types. I chose to think of all pentatonics as minor scales and thats how I see the positions on the fretboard. By eliminating one less thing to define, it simplifies the learning process.

Paul

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 20 Jul 2003 4:22 pm

Rick- I am a George Russell fan to no small degree, and I highly reccomend it. Mr. Russell spent over 50 years on this project, and its application is usable in any and all forms of music. I believe that it will be taught in all music schools in the next couple of decades.

The book, available at georgerussell.com, is expensive, $125. But if all someone got out of it were an understanding of the Twelve Tone Order of Tonal Gravity, and the Chordmodes on Chart "A" in the book, it is worth many times the cost.

If anyone were to decide to do this study, I would be glad to assist them through personal e-mail.[This message was edited by Mike Delaney on 20 July 2003 at 05:23 PM.]

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 20 Jul 2003 10:14 pm

I play my best when I'm thinking in melody and counterpoint. But I really need to have the scales and chords down cold to pull it off.

John Steele, Now that Nora has money she can hire guys like Paul if she wants steel so, well, I know who I would hire ! I'm busy hackin it out in the clubs on the jazz side of things playing early jazz and Hawaiian music on my Stringmaster when I'm not on the road. Its hard to focus on a long term personal musical goal when I need to keep it together with the gigs that are paying the bills.

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 22 July 2003 at 10:02 AM.]

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 22 Jul 2003 8:57 am

I got to jam with John Scofield on Sunday night, at the Late Night Jam following the Ottawa Jazz Fest. Still beaming.

-John

Jeff Evans · Post by **Jeff Evans** » 22 Jul 2003 2:26 pm

Well, how did he like your banjo tone?

http://www.johnscofield.com/

edited for code[This message was edited by Jeff Evans on 22 July 2003 at 03:32 PM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 23 Jul 2003 1:48 am

John Steele, Great jam I imagine.
I met John Scofield a few times when I lived in NYC, great guy and a very open attitude for music and players. I did a Dvorak symphony with one of his bass players too, Dennis Irwin.

Rick Schmidt · Post by **Rick Schmidt** » 23 Jul 2003 2:39 am

Great John! congrats! So enquiring minds want to know....did you play steel too?

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 25 Jul 2003 12:46 pm

Haha... No, Rick, no steel this time.
In fact, when I looked up from the piano and saw Scofield grinning at me with his axe in hand, I was off that piano bench like a flea off a skunk ! I relinquished the piano to my old friend Gordon Webster, who is better equipped to deal with a monster like Scofield than I.

The interesting thing was hearing Scofield play all those old bebop jam tunes... Man, he can do it !
-John

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 13 Aug 2003 6:43 am

Its a 90 minute drive from Philadelphia to Manhattan. Jim Cohen CAN cut anything Jazz related and make those cats drool who call themselves Jazz players in NYC.

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 13 Aug 2003 3:58 pm

Yeah, but Pat Martino is right there in Philly. Jim even kind of knows him I think. Maybe on some relaxed afternoon, at a little neighborhood studio....

Sam Minnitti · Post by **Sam Minnitti** » 13 Aug 2003 4:47 pm

Don't forget to invite Jimmy Bruno.

------------------
www.samminnitti.com